F-22 Raptor Thread

[Nightsky]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Time to crawl out from under that cabbage leaf little feller, none of this happens in a vacuum, readers of the AFM were NOT surprised by "Have Blue", and from the ATFs inception in 1986, until its IOC in 2005 was almost 20 years. Nor is the F-22 "out of date" as it remains the most capable fighter aircraft on the planet, and will be for the foreseeable future.

It undoubtedly is - and will remain the most capable manned fighter for quite some time to come. however, I do still think the future is the unmanned strike aircraft.

and for the record, let me state unequivacably, there are NO hangers full of follow on aircraft, fighters or bombers waiting in hangers, at Groom Lake or anywhere else for that matter.

Well, that's the thing noone knows about - and if someone does, he will either not confirm or simply deny

For the record:

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prototype stealthy drone fighter jet, developed by BAE. And usually the Brits are not the most advanced in jet tech, but a certain country starting with a U and ending with an A. So it's not too far off to suspect the US already has some decent fighter drones available (and I'm not referring to X-47B in this regard).

Anyway, it's off topic and I'll leave it at that.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Thats right Kwai, it was either or, and the groundpounders on the joint-chiefs love A2G, and with the JSF being loaded with financial incentives, not only in US, but for our partners, it is much more "attractive" and politically expedient to have everyone "feel the love. financially", to have canceled the JSF after our "partners" had invested a chunk of change would have been a diplomatic nightmare, as a result the lovely and far superior Raptor was "axed", sad but thats politics??? brat

With the release of Sec Gates new book, his bias against USAF in general and the F-22 in particular is on display in his rather "self serving" auto bio-graphy. His arrogant proclamation that China wouldn't have a fifth generation fighter until the early 2020s was shown to be in error when the Chinese offered up the J-20s first flight during his visit. This lack of depth and perception when it comes to tactical airpower, he just gets it wrong, so the security of the nation continues to suffer from the lack of a cohesive, robust, balanced portfolio of assets, I believe the AFM article, quotes one of Gates personal hits, as saying that Sec Gates has "this war itus". Gates seems to overlook the real threats to our national security, in order to be a "budget cutter....sadly the Air Forces Main focus now seems to be the prevention of "sexual harassment", as the "mission". While as the Father of Seven daughters, that needs to be a concern, but I would prefer that they defend the country, so that my children and grandchildren are able to know and experience the freedom that allows us the luxury to be concerned about those things, as in the real world women are attacked and victimized by brutal and pernicious tyrants at all levels,,,, for instance in the Sudan, and I could go on????

The F-22 was/is the key to the Hi/Lo concept of air-power, you must have a capable aircraft to meet all the threats. The F-22 is still the only aircraft that has an "overwhelming" advantage in the Air to Air regime, allowing the F-35 to follow on and finish the mission, in "relative" safety..

 

[Equation]

With the release of Sec Gates new book, his bias against USAF in general and the F-22 in particular is on display in his rather "self serving" auto bio-graphy. His arrogant proclamation that China wouldn't have a fifth generation fighter until the early 2020s was shown to be in error when the Chinese offered up the J-20s first flight during his visit. This lack of depth and perception when it comes to tactical airpower, he just gets it wrong, so the security of the nation continues to suffer from the lack of a cohesive, robust, balanced portfolio of assets, I believe the AFM article, quotes one of Gates personal hits, as saying that Sec Gates has "this war itus". Gates seems to overlook the real threats to our national security, in order to be a "budget cutter....sadly the Air Forces Main focus now seems to be the prevention of "sexual harassment", as the "mission". While as the Father of Seven daughters, that needs to be a concern, but I would prefer that they defend the country, so that my children and grandchildren are able to know and experience the freedom that allows us the luxury to be concerned about those things, as in the real world women are attacked and victimized by brutal and pernicious tyrants at all levels,,,, for instance in the Sudan, and I could go on????

The F-22 was/is the key to the Hi/Lo concept of air-power, you must have a capable aircraft to meet all the threats. The F-22 is still the only aircraft that has an "overwhelming" advantage in the Air to Air regime, allowing the F-35 to follow on and finish the mission, in "relative" safety..

Let me guess, you won't be at the next Robert Gates book signing at the nearest Barnes & Noble anytime soon.

 

[Air Force Brat]

With the release of Sec Gates new book, his bias against USAF in general and the F-22 in particular is on display in his rather "self serving" auto bio-graphy. His arrogant proclamation that China wouldn't have a fifth generation fighter until the early 2020s was shown to be in error when the Chinese offered up the J-20s first flight during his visit. This lack of depth and perception when it comes to tactical airpower, he just gets it wrong, so the security of the nation continues to suffer from the lack of a cohesive, robust, balanced portfolio of assets, I believe the AFM article, quotes one of Gates personal hits, as saying that Sec Gates has "this war itus". Gates seems to overlook the real threats to our national security, in order to be a "budget cutter....sadly the Air Forces Main focus now seems to be the prevention of "sexual harassment", as the "mission". While as the Father of Seven daughters, that needs to be a concern, but I would prefer that they defend the country, so that my children and grandchildren are able to know and experience the freedom that allows us the luxury to be concerned about those things, as in the real world women are attacked and victimized by brutal and pernicious tyrants at all levels,,,, for instance in the Sudan, and I could go on????

The F-22 was/is the key to the Hi/Lo concept of air-power, you must have a capable aircraft to meet all the threats. The F-22 is still the only aircraft that has an "overwhelming" advantage in the Air to Air regime, allowing the F-35 to follow on and finish the mission, in "relative" safety..

Well here ya go, 2/28/14, after the Russian invasion of the Crimea, the 184 Raptors look like the Right bird to check things out, nice to have the F-35 coming on, but the Raptor would excel at this mission, rather disgusting thinking that the preeminent 5 gen in the world is out of production, because the people who are supposed to plan to prevent these things, had their heads "up and locked", thank Bob Gates and the BHO team for leaving us with our pants down...

 

[FORBIN]

F-22 internal sdb

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[Jeff Head]

Yes!

Forbin, you may be interested in my flickr F-22 phto stream set. I have those two pics and a LOT more:

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Check it out. I have a BUNCH of photo stream sets going up on flickr.

 

[chuck731]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I think adding those plates, with thrust vectoring force the plane to be heavier. Would it increase maneuverability? Not certain that it has too many advantages to a delta-canard. Most importantly, I think those plates decrease thrust, by about 15% as they are constricting a round engine outlet to a small, rectangular exit. Not sure that's totally right but that's as far as I know. In any case, those plates must have some serious draw-backs as they are not too difficult to make but every stealth fighter designed after the F-22 has decided to forgo them in favor of round nozzles.

F-22's 2D stealthy thrust vectoring nozzles are actually quite heavy. F-22 was designed to be both highly agile, and highly maneuverable. Vectoring nozzles aid agility, not maneuverability. In fact the weight of the nozzle, as well as its use in flight, hinders maneuverability.

Since F-22 matured, USAF has found that the preferred way to use the F-22 emphasizes F-22's maneuverability, but avoid situations where that puts high premium on its agility, eventhough hot shot pilots have more fun with agility. So the USAF now thinks the thrust vectoring nozzle was not worth the sacrafices in thrust to weight ratio it incurred, and the knock on effect that has.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

F-22's 2D stealthy thrust vectoring nozzles are actually quite heavy. F-22 was designed to be both highly agile, and highly maneuverable. Vectoring nozzles aid agility, not maneuverability. In fact the weight of the nozzle, as well as its use in flight, hinders maneuverability.

Since F-22 matured, USAF has found that the preferred way to use the F-22 emphasizes F-22's maneuverability, but avoid situations where that puts high premium on its agility, eventhough hot shot pilots have more fun with agility. So the USAF now thinks the thrust vectoring nozzle was not worth the sacrafices in thrust to weight ratio it incurred, and the knock on effect that has.

Chuck, the F-22 was designed to be and is super-maneuverable, it achieves super-maneuverability by using OVT, for maneuverability through-out its vast speed range, and even post-stall, the OVT enabling the F-22 to be pitched or de-pitched with-out regard for aerodynamic pitch controls.

I take issue with your distinction between manueverability and agility, I believe you are 180 degrees out of phase here, and ask you to provide a source please to support your dissertation,. Super-maneuverability as a design parameter of the ATF specifically refers to thrust vectoring, pitching the aircraft beyond the limits of aerodynamic controls, even post stall.

I also take issue with your statement that USAF now thinks the OVT on the F-22 was "not worth it", and yes I realize that the preferred method of fighting the F-22 is BVR, but no one in the USAF currently "fighting the F-22" as a combat pilot or commander of an F-22 squadron would agree with that, although lots of people who are not assigned to the F-22 "blow a lot of hot air", in their own version of OVT, please provide a source for the statement, "USAF now thinks the Thrust Vectoring Nozzle was not worth the sacrifices".

Mods I realize this is off topic, please feel free to move these F-22 posts to the F-22 thread, apologies and many thanks, brat

 

[chuck731]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Air Force's own study of the lessons of the F-22 procurement program, published on Page 53 of the Nov - Dec 2012 Issue of

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, which is US Air Force's own professional journal.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Air Force's own study of the lessons of the F-22 procurement program, published on Page 53 of the Nov - Dec 2012 Issue of

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, which is US Air Force's own professional journal.

Well Chuck, quoting from Lt. Col. Neimi's article, "In terms of performance, the initial operational test and evaluation in 2004 found the F-22 "Overwhelmingly effective" in it air to air role, and its current assessment by Col. Niemi, "todays F-22 clearly "excels at its originally designed "air to air mission, reinforcing the fact that stealth enables tremendous advantages in the radar dominated environment of modern aerial combat"". "Further the F-22 has the demonstrated ability to conduct air to ground attack in a "high threat environment, where fourth generation fighters simply cannot survive"" end quotes. In summary Chuck, I would say that Col Neimi is likely looking for a spot on the joint chiefs, he sounds like a book-keeper, manager type, yes the F-22 is very expensive, so is the F-35, and so is the J-20.. his argument is that the threat the aircraft was designed to combat deteriorated, but honestly the Raptor is/was to good for the competition, it was designed to be so????? absolutely, nowhere is there a direct criticism of the effectiveness of OVT on this aircraft to deliver "overwhelming effectiveness", quite the contrary sir.

Now on to your Maneuverability vs Agility source.

end off topic