F-22 Raptor Thread

[manqiangrexue]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Well Chuck, quoting from Lt. Col. Neimi's article, "In terms of performance, the initial operational test and evaluation in 2004 found the F-22 "Overwhelmingly effective" in it air to air role, and its current assessment by Col. Niemi, "todays F-22 clearly "excels at its originally designed "air to air mission, reinforcing the fact that stealth enables tremendous advantages in the radar dominated environment of modern aerial combat"". "Further the F-22 has the demonstrated ability to conduct air to ground attack in a "high threat environment, where fourth generation fighters simply cannot survive"" end quotes. In summary Chuck, I would say that Col Neimi is likely looking for a spot on the joint chiefs, he sounds like a book-keeper, manager type, yes the F-22 is very expensive, so is the F-35, and so is the J-20.. his argument is that the threat the aircraft was designed to combat deteriorated, but honestly the Raptor is/was to good for the competition, it was designed to be so????? absolutely, nowhere is there a direct criticism of the effectiveness of OVT on this aircraft to deliver "overwhelming effectiveness", quite the contrary sir.

Now on to your Maneuverability vs Agility source.

end off topic

Brat, it is indisputable that the F-22 is highly capable but I think Chuck was referring to this paragraph on page 72.

"The ATF’s stealth made the aircraft inherently more survivable against these threats, but it lacked a robust air-to-ground attack capability to target them. Furthermore, niche air-to-air capabilities such as thrust vectoring and some specialized avionics could have been eliminated to reduce cost and weight. Range should have received more emphasis, possibly even at the expense of supercruise. In addition to JDAMs, the Air Force should have added air-to-ground radar, Link-16 data-link transmit capability, and an infrared targeting sensor. These modifications would have greatly enhanced the F-22’s utility in threat environments dominated by surface threats without degrading air-to-air performance."

It basically says that other things should have been focused on and that the 2D thrust-vectoring could have been dropped to save weight and cost "without degrading air-to-air performance." So did it say that the option was a big mistake and was detrimental to the Raptor's abilities? No. But it did say that adding the feature wasn't very helpful, was costly and heavy, and not worth the effort. Going back to topic, this is probably why all stealth fighters invented after the F-22, including the J-20, show no signs of wanting to incorporate the technology.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Brat, it is indisputable that the F-22 is highly capable but I think Chuck was referring to this paragraph on page 72.

"The ATF’s stealth made the aircraft inherently more survivable against these threats, but it lacked a robust air-to-ground attack capability to target them. Furthermore, niche air-to-air capabilities such as thrust vectoring and some specialized avionics could have been eliminated to reduce cost and weight. Range should have received more emphasis, possibly even at the expense of supercruise. In addition to JDAMs, the Air Force should have added air-to-ground radar, Link-16 data-link transmit capability, and an infrared targeting sensor. These modifications would have greatly enhanced the F-22’s utility in threat environments dominated by surface threats without degrading air-to-air performance."

It basically says that other things should have been focused on and that the 2D thrust-vectoring could have been dropped to save weight and cost "without degrading air-to-air performance." So did it say that the option was a big mistake and was detrimental to the Raptor's abilities? No. But it did say that adding the feature wasn't very helpful, was costly and heavy, and not worth the effort.

The F-22 was not designed as an attack bird. It was never meant to be a fighter/bomber. It was designed to rule the skies.

The Lt. Colonel has an extensive background in F-15E strike Eagle operations before coming to the F-22. It is easy to see why he has the opinions and feelings he does, and would look at the F-22 and desire to see it become more multi-role. Particularly in the current political and budget environment..

And what he says is true...if the F-22 had focused on those things, and shaved off some of the features that were inherent to its abject air dominance role...it perhaps could have cost less, and been more multi-role.

But that was not what it was designed for. And what it was designed for is what it does without peer. It's one of the old, "would've, should've...didn't" arguements.

I believe the cuts in the F-22 were short-sighted. The excuse of cost is easily served up...but it is precisely by cutting its number so drastically that that issue is enhanced to the point of being so easy to point to.

When you take an aircraft that was initially planned in the 1,200-1,500 number, cut it back to 700, then 350 or so, and finally to 195, you end up causing a HUGE impact on ROI. There is no getting around it...but that is not the aircraft's fault, or the fault of its design. That's the fault of decision makers coming along after the fact and changing things.

Also, time is now showing that having more than 187 active birds would be a very good thing...a better thing than what these prognisticators forecast only a couple of years ago.

We now see in Russia and in China the development, and the ultimae fielding of the very types of aircraft that the F-22 was designed to engage...and which these people felt was somehow something of a by-gone era, and not a forseeable threat. Therefore, they premturely decided that the F-22 and what it does so extraordinarily well was not going to be needeed. So they capped it.

Well...what can I say. They were wrong.

As it is, all of this in depth F-22 talk is off topic here. I am moving all of that discussion over to the F-22 thread

Thanks.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Brat, it is indisputable that the F-22 is highly capable but I think Chuck was referring to this paragraph on page 72.

"The ATF’s stealth made the aircraft inherently more survivable against these threats, but it lacked a robust air-to-ground attack capability to target them. Furthermore, niche air-to-air capabilities such as thrust vectoring and some specialized avionics could have been eliminated to reduce cost and weight. Range should have received more emphasis, possibly even at the expense of supercruise. In addition to JDAMs, the Air Force should have added air-to-ground radar, Link-16 data-link transmit capability, and an infrared targeting sensor. These modifications would have greatly enhanced the F-22’s utility in threat environments dominated by surface threats without degrading air-to-air performance."

It basically says that other things should have been focused on and that the 2D thrust-vectoring could have been dropped to save weight and cost "without degrading air-to-air performance." So did it say that the option was a big mistake and was detrimental to the Raptor's abilities? No. But it did say that adding the feature wasn't very helpful, was costly and heavy, and not worth the effort. Going back to topic, this is probably why all stealth fighters invented after the F-22, including the J-20, show no signs of wanting to incorporate the technology.

You're making my point, the article did NOT say that thrust vectoring was detrimental to the Raptors capabilities, and if you read Jeff's post, the ATF, come F-22 Raptor was designed to meet and beat, future 5th gen fighters advanced by the communist block, the PAK FA does in fact rely on OVT, while the Chinese at present do not have OVT capability at present, simple as that. As I pointed out Col. Nieme is looking at the money aspect, and the procurement possibilities in hindsight, in my opinion as a bean-counter the F-22 is designed to meet the A2A threat, the JSF is/was designed to be a bomb-truck, NOT an A2A tactical fighter, it will have a rough time in an A2A environment against a capable adversary such as PAK-FA, and likely the J-20, an J-31. While I am glad you read all the article, Chucks contention is that OVT, made the F-22 less mission capable, that lad is simply untrue, what is true is that the J-20 does NOT have OVT because it is unavailable in a Chinese powerplant, and they did not wish to purchase OVT engines from the Russians. My further point is that USAF is very happy with the Raptor, it is a winner, its costs were driven up by delays, cuts, and political wrangling, and that idiot Robert Gates, and yes Rummy and Cheney are also guilty here, but Gates had a vendetta against the F-22, which he prosecuted to the point of firing those who vehemently disagreed with his assessment of the F-22, I would suggest you "check six" before counting the Raptor out. brat

Fifth Generation fighters are not "invented", they are "developed", with an eye to the mission at hand, to change any aircraft in the middle of a production run, or to cut the planned buy, always increases expenses, just watch the F-35 for further proof of this statement. Also your statement that no one developing a stealth fighter is using OVT, is in direct contradiction to the PAK-FA, which is intended to go head to head with the F-22, it has OVT for super-maneuverability and is designed to supercruise, as is the J-20.

 

[FORBIN]

F-22 of 199 FS based at Hickam, Hawai, the only ANG F-22 sqn.

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[Dizasta1]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

When you take an aircraft that was initially planned in the 1,200-1,500 number, cut it back to 700, then 350 or so, and finally to 195, you end up causing a HUGE impact on ROI. There is no getting around it...but that is not the aircraft's fault, or the fault of its design. That's the fault of decision makers coming along after the fact and changing things.

In your opinion, do you feel that there is a chance that Raptor production would restart? And if so, how would that affect the F-35's production?

 

[Jeff Head]

F-22 Raptor News, Pictures and Videos

In your opinion, do you feel that there is a chance that Raptor production would restart? And if so, how would that affect the F-35's production?

In my opinion, with the development of the PAK FA and the J-20, which were what the F-22 was designed to counter, the F-22 lines should definietly be restarted, particularly in light of what the Russians are doing in Europe.

But it will all absolutely depend on the political climate in Washington DC.

If an administrationa and congress are elected to deal with these things and the Affordable Health Care Act and other economy busintg measures that have been occurring the last six years...it is very possible that it, or an updated, even more modern version would be.

If, however, the vote is characterized as one which...once again...appeals to destructive trend of giving away "stuff," for votes (Obama-phones, more unemployment, higher food stamps, etc., etc.) and a political party is elected (again) to feed the "entitlement" mentality, then no, it will definitely not be restarted.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

In your opinion, do you feel that there is a chance that Raptor production would restart? And if so, how would that affect the F-35's production?

You've hit the nail on the head Dizasta, the F-22 was killed so the F-35 could/would survive, the powers that be have adjudged that 150 F-22s would get the job done, and that the F-35 was crucial to maintain fighter numbers for the US and all of our F-35 partners with at least a Raptor Light, judging that fifth gen was/is crucial to survive in the highly toxic anti-air environment. The deciding factor is that the F-35 should have, would have cost half the price of a Raptor, (not so by the way???), and that there was no PORK left on the Raptor, no manufacturing bacon to hang out to cure your jobs and manufacturing needs in your district, (lots of that on the ThunderHogge II), and some for each of our "partners" as well.

Some Democrat Congressman killed exportation of the Raptor in order to "save the F-35" bacon, so that's the name of that tune.


Now, back to the first question, though it breaks my heart to tell the truth when it hurts so bad, (to the Air Force Brat), the answer is "NYET, comrade Dizasta", no more Raptors, it just isn't in the Political cards, though Putin's "Spring Break" activities on the Beachs of the Black Sea would make re-lighting the Raptor line a no brainer. The BHO team "ain't got no Brainers", this is tongue in cheek for you "whiney" folks of a touchy-feely socialist bent. The world is in free fall, and everything is on the table due to the abject "brainlessness" of the BHO team when it comes to foreign policy, I have been losing sleep, "literally" for the last nearly six years, but I am encouraged by the progress of the ThunderHogge II team, this will shape up to be a great airplane, and is light years ahead of the homely little X-32, so I am thankfull for that anyway... Y'all have a great day, rant over.

 

[Bernard]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

You've hit the nail on the head Dizasta, the F-22 was killed so the F-35 could/would survive, the powers that be have adjudged that 150 F-22s would get the job done, and that the F-35 was crucial to maintain fighter numbers for the US and all of our F-35 partners with at least a Raptor Light, judging that fifth gen was/is crucial to survive in the highly toxic anti-air environment. The deciding factor is that the F-35 should have, would have cost half the price of a Raptor, (not so by the way???), and that there was no PORK left on the Raptor, no manufacturing bacon to hang out to cure your jobs and manufacturing needs in your district, (lots of that on the ThunderHogge II), and some for each of our "partners as well".

Some Democrat Congressman killed exportation of the Raptor in order to "save the F-35", so that's the name of that tune.


Now, back to the first question, though it breaks my heart to tell the truth when it hurts so bad, (to the Air Force Brat), the answer is "NYET, comrade Dizasta", no more Raptors, it just isn't in the Political cards, though Putin's "Spring Break" activities on the Beachs of the Black Sea would make re-lighting the Raptor line a no brainer. The BHO team "ain't got no Brainers", this is tongue in cheek for you "whiney" folks of a touchy-feely socialist bent. The world is in free fall, and everything is on the table due to the abject "brainlessness" of the BHO team when it comes to foreign policy, I have been losing sleep, "literally" for the last nearly six years, but I am encouraged by the progress of the ThunderHogge II team, this will shape up to be a great airplane, and is light years ahead of the homely little X-32, so I am thankfull for that anyway... Y'all have a great day, rant over.

I don't remember where I saw an estimate of the pricetag of opening the F-22 production lines again, but it was close to $200 Million or something just to reopen it?

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

I don't remember where I saw an estimate of the pricetag of opening the F-22 production lines again, but it was close to $200 Billion or something just to reopen it?

Maybe I could believe $200 million. But no way $200 billion. IMHO, there's some serious decimal place issues with that number.

 

[Bernard]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Maybe I could believe $200 million. But no way $200 billion. IMHO, there's some serious decimal place issues with that number.

Yes you're right. That's a way off, it was around $200Million not Billion. I was just saying it would take a huge amount of money to reopen production.