F-22 Raptor Thread

[Jeff Head]

Re: F-22 Raptor

Yes you're right. That's a way off, it was around $200Million not Billion. I was just saying it would take a huge amount of money to reopen production.

Well, with J-20s and PAK FAs coming out, particularly if they are to be built in any large numbers, and with Russia flexing its muscles and now talking about once again basing Backfire bombers in Crimea and the like...it would be well worth it to re-open the lines and boost the F-22 numbers up to at least 350 aircraft IMHO.

And given the amount of money this administration has spent over the last 6 years on total loser programs...like a a trillion dollars thrown away $100 million at a time on companies like Solindra, $800 million dollars on a God-forsaken web site (really?) that still does not work, hnundreds of millions in foreign aid to countries that do not even make a pretense of being our friend, untold millions on grants and research ;projects to study the mating habits of earthworms and the like, etc, etc. we could easily afford it.

The key will simply be who the American people elect. We shall see here in 2014 and then particularly in 2016 which way that goes.

 

[Air Force Brat]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Yes you're right. That's a way off, it was around $200Million not Billion. I was just saying it would take a huge amount of money to reopen production.

Actually Bernard, that is just 1.6 F-35 Bs, maybe less, a real bargain, the Raptor is still the most capable Fighter Aircraft on the planet, and will likely remain so, what I would favor as the Air Force looks to six gen, is an upgraded Raptor. A clean up design, looking to the areas that were high maintenance and streamling the production/maintenance process as the Raptor A+ was built.

When Gen Mark Welsh is saying he thinks he could build the LRSB for 550 million a copy, I say increase the tankage on the F-22, give her a little tweaking and we're good to go!

I realize that is oversimplification, but I'm not sure we need to be building 550 million a copy bombers and who know where the actual number will end up 922 million a copy, boggles the mind????

 

[Bernard]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Actually Bernard, that is just 1.6 F-35 Bs, maybe less, a real bargain, the Raptor is still the most capable Fighter Aircraft on the planet, and will likely remain so, what I would favor as the Air Force looks to six gen, is an upgraded Raptor. A clean up design, looking to the areas that were high maintenance and streamling the production/maintenance process as the Raptor A+ was built.

When Gen Mark Welsh is saying he thinks he could build the LRSB for 550 million a copy, I say increase the tankage on the F-22, give her a little tweaking and we're good to go!

Fantastic idea, honestly if they do anything they should restart funding for the carrier F-22 variant. Now that would truely make the new Ford class even more powerful with a sqaudron of F-22C's on each. Ha i can only dream of this.

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Closest it would ever come is the F/A-xx program. As to a restated F-22 they should do it, and include upgrades form the lightning in the form of the distributed aperture system, helmet mounted cueing system and upgraded avionics. and add to it a side scan radar an IRST system. with a Meter class missile system

 

[Skywatcher]

Re: J-20 The New Generation Fighter Thread IV

Maybe I could believe $200 million. But no way $200 billion. IMHO, there's some serious decimal place issues with that number.

Didn't a RAND Corp study say it would cost an additional $175 million for another 75 planes?

On the other hand, taking a production holiday to focus on the F-35 to make it work gives us latitude to "customize" future F-22 builds against the J-20 and PAK-FA (especially if those rumors about the J-20 hitting Mach 2.5 is true).

 

[TerraN_EmpirE]

Yes there is a RAND report that states such, however the price increase can be mitigated by buying more then 75 units. Right now there are what 175 or so raptors that's a very low number buy for a American Air Force fighter. And even with the thousand or so much projected F35A and legacy fighters the minimum continental defense requirements for the USAF Will come up short. So more is a smart move.

 

[FORBIN]

F-22

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[Air Force Brat]

F-22

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REHEAT!, that's a great picture, flaps and flapperons are both deflected downward, increasing the camber of the wing for maximum lift!

This is a fabulous photo of the Raptor, and well illustrates the Air Force Brat's obvious affection for our little alien bird, which for some of our new members gained much of its technological advantage from the crashed alien bird at Roswell, New Mexico in 1947. I would like to point out the mass centralization, where the main wing, and the center of lift are more or less on the CG, allowing the Raptor rapid transitions to the vertical that we see, also note that even at this high angle of climb, there is still a LOT of vertical stab peeking over the leading edge. The mass centralization is aided by forward fuselage lift, and the aft mounted horizontal stabilons, promoting "relaxed stability, allowing the aircraft to "pivot" around the CG rapidly. This contrasts with other aircraft with a forward or aft center of lift where you basically have to artificially force the aircraft around the CG by having a larger rear stabilator, or in the case of the aft mounted delta, a set of forward mounted canards.

Also notice the blending of the forward fuselage with the leading edge of the wing, an "organic" juncture if you will, that allows a very smooth transition, notice the fuselage blending spreads across the entire leading edge and even aft into the wing proper. This bird has a lot of lift, enabling the old "climbing around the turn" theory, the Raptor actually generates an almost dangerous ability to pull an maintain a very high positive g loading. The old engineer adage, "if it looks good, it will fly good", is definitely in operation here. Thanks for posting Forbin.

 

[Inst]

Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

The F-22, unfortunately, was a flawed design in itself. The biggest problem with the F-22 is that the RAM coating on the F-22 was flawed; Lockmart apparently was concealing flaws in the RAM technology where it would be extremely easily corroded by normal, resulting in huge expenses and workhours spent maintaining the RAM layers on the F-22. It's since been fixed, but the F-22 has other flaws. For example, compared to other 5th generation craft, it is utterly inferior in infra-red sensors, since it simply doesn't have any, unlike the PAK-FA, which has an EOTS, or the J-20 or the F-35, both of which have EODAS systems. It means that it will have a lot more trouble passively detecting opponents, especially stealthy ones.

As far as the F-35 goes, it's also an inferior system due to its poor kinematics, but it is the best available solution at the moment. If different choices could have been made regarding the JSF program, they probably should have been made, but this late into the game it's far too late to develop an alternative 5th generation fighter. The United States will be saddled with the JSF system until it can develop 6th generation aircraft, to which, luckily, it is going to be the first to the party. Just... whatever you do, please don't let Lockmart touch your 6th generation projects this time around. Better yet, don't let Lockmart touch your 7th generation projects either.

 

[Jeff Head]

Re: US F-35 Joint Strike Fighter Program Progress, Photos & Videos

The F-22, unfortunately, was a flawed design in itself. The biggest problem with the F-22 is that the RAM coating on the F-22 was flawed; Lockmart apparently was concealing flaws in the RAM technology where it would be extremely easily corroded by normal, resulting in huge expenses and workhours spent maintaining the RAM layers on the F-22. It's since been fixed.

Full stop, end of story on that issue.

The F-22 was (and in most respects still is) a jump in technologies and capabilities that was one or two generations ahead of its time. Of course there were issues like this. IMHO, that's not a flaw, it's called pushing the envelope.

The F-22 has other flaws. For example, compared to other 5th generation craft, it is utterly inferior in infra-red sensors, since it simply doesn't have any, unlike the PAK-FA, which has an EOTS, or the J-20 or the F-35, both of which have EODAS systems. It means that it will have a lot more trouble passively detecting opponents, especially stealthy ones.

The F-22 has ways of acquiring other aircraft with IR outside of a specific IRST system. Are those methodologies optimal in light of the new IRST systems? Probably not.

But the telling thing is that the F-22 itself denies other aircraft the ability to lock onto it. It has the best IR stealth out there, and so its own capabilities to acquire other aircraft through its own means allow it to almost universally acquire other aircraft at BVR long before it is acquired, and then dispose of the threat.

Here's what some pilots have said who actually have to go against the F-22 in A2A exercises:

RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell:
"The thing (F-22) denies your ability to put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it through the canopy. It's the most frustrated I've ever been."

Red Flag Agressor, Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander:
"We tried to overload them (F-22s) with numbers and failed. It's humbling to fly against the F-22."

In the rare instances where F-22 have been "shot down," at such exercises, it has been because the rules of engagement were modified to either disallow, or severely hamper the innate capabilities of the F-22 so that the opposing forces could bring them into an engagement, when they otherwise never would have.

So, despite whatever issues one may raise with the F-22, it is the absolute best air superiority fighter in existence, and the OPNLY 5th generation air superiority fighter to actually be produced to this day. It was designed specifically to defeat emerging threats like the PAKFA and the J-20...and I believe it will be true to that design. I expect the F-35, which is now a generation newer, will perform in a like manner...again, despite whatever flaws.

You are not going to design such complex systems without some flaws. The trick will be to address and correct them as they are manifest, as was done with the F-22 RAM issues.