Promotional video of KF-51 Panther
In which role this tank would play out in the German army btw?
In which role this tank would play out in the German army btw?
European Military News, Reports, Data, etc.
- Thread starter sandyj
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TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
At this point? None. Down the line it might end up being the replacement for Leopard 2A7.
The Franco Germanic Main Group Combat System is still dominated by KNDS whom are pushing a separate tank design the European - Main Battle Tank E-MBT (Also at Eurosatory)
Rhinemetall’s KF line is based on an internal program development of technology in hopes of creating products that anticipate potential program needs. This was clearly designed with MGCS in mind but also aiming at OMBT and other programs. Basically “If you build it, they will come.”
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It could also be made to sabotage Franco-German military-industrial integration. Both the joint MBT and Fighter projects are stalling. This move by Rheinmetall looks geopolitical.
Designating this tank "Panther" and unveiling it in Paris of all places is beyond ironic. I wouldn't be surprised if they were secretly encouraged by the German Army. Maybe that's why they didn't say which "client" asked them for a prototype.
A more close up view of the the new Rehinmetall KF51 Panther tank at their stand at Eurosatory 2022.
What a beast!!!!!
What a beast!!!!!
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I don’t think it’s geopolitical but more one upmanship. The original Panther Panzerkampfwagen V was a MAN AG design manufactured by Daimler-Benz of Mercedes fame and MHN who did survive the bombing of Germany.
The EMBT and KF51 are similar in some aspects but the EMBT has stalled primarily as it’s just a modified Leclerc turret on a modified Leopard 2 hull. With the addition of a 30mm canon. Otherwise it’s a chimera of existing products without a serious improvement. I mean it’s packing Leclerc’s 120mm with now only 22 rounds. As the 4th man is sitting where the hull ammo on Leopard 2 hull would have been. Its the what if tank. KNDS is a joint venture between French Nexter makers of Leclerc, German KMW and Rhinemetall. The EMBT seems to symbolically show the problem with this venture The French on top the German as the horse power. Rather than trying to develop a new tank system they seem to have been pushed to the status quo and just taking half of two good tanks and bolting new stuff on.
KF51 by contrast is a clean sheet above the turret ring and modified leopard 2 below. It takes the same bullet points.
Automatic loader yes with only 20 rounds,
Hard kill APS
UAS launcher
4 man crew,
12.7mm coax with 7.62x51mm R
but adds to them with that 130mm gun.
They offer it in the KF51 line as an export product, the original Panther Tank though yes design for the Third Riche served longer in the French Army 1944-1950 than the German 1943-1944. Though I am sure Rhinemetall would love to see the iron cross on the side of Panther, like with the Lynx family they would likely content themselves with selling Kf51 to every other major military power with good NATO relations or at least licensing features from it.
As a product it seems more like a tank design that could meet threats out into 2050.
Yep this is just a better tank (on paper), even with the expected German over-engineering problems which it might have. If it lives up to the hype, it may end up being the best in the world for many years.
However, I would think that this one-upmanship, in this context though, is geopolitical. The Germans know exactly what the implications are for the Franco-German military industries if this project ends up ultimately killing the MGCS.
And that decision might even effect the FCAS, although in the aerospace domain, Germany's in a much tougher spot, with many more dependencies.
However, I would think that this one-upmanship, in this context though, is geopolitical. The Germans know exactly what the implications are for the Franco-German military industries if this project ends up ultimately killing the MGCS.
And that decision might even effect the FCAS, although in the aerospace domain, Germany's in a much tougher spot, with many more dependencies.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
I would argue that Germany has a stronger ground defense industry capabilities set than air. Where France has a strong Aviation base. I mean yeah German aviation has had a few winners post WW2 but no where near it’s WW2 position where it’s ground industry is notorious. Almost all it’s fighters have been imported or in joint venture. Yet when it comes to ground forces though Germany is a cheapskate on funding it’s forces it’s an artist on what they build. Even France is using German rifles, pistols and SMGs these days.
If something was to upset the position of FCAS in my opinion it would be FCAS navalization or the F35 buys. France is the dominant player in FCAS, the concept is designed around French needs more than anyone else including Germany. Which is why Tempest has standing, it’s much more in line with European Air forces .
I mean the French insist on FCAS being built for French carriers which shifts money and resources into navalization. Germany hasn’t had an Aircraft carrier since the single unfinished prototype in WW2. As such FCAS is Rafale 2.0, and that’s it’s problem. If France went on it’s own to FCAS it would soak up most of the French military budget. Because of that France wants a Eurofighter style consortium built around Dassault.
If something was to upset the position of FCAS in my opinion it would be FCAS navalization or the F35 buys. France is the dominant player in FCAS, the concept is designed around French needs more than anyone else including Germany. Which is why Tempest has standing, it’s much more in line with European Air forces .
I mean the French insist on FCAS being built for French carriers which shifts money and resources into navalization. Germany hasn’t had an Aircraft carrier since the single unfinished prototype in WW2. As such FCAS is Rafale 2.0, and that’s it’s problem. If France went on it’s own to FCAS it would soak up most of the French military budget. Because of that France wants a Eurofighter style consortium built around Dassault.
That discussion already happened with Eurofighter and Rafale. The Eurofighter proponents did not want to make it carrier capable and multirole supposedly to save money and introduce the aircraft into service earlier. In the end the Eurofighter was neither cheaper nor entered service before the Rafale. The UK also ended with no modern aircraft design for its carriers and Eurofighter added more systems to later tranches to make it multirole as well. So who was right with regards to initial specs then?
The truth for the Eurofighter/Rafale split is they never could agree on workshare and Dassault does not believe in collaborative projects. Period. Dassault managed to outlive all other aircraft manufacturers in France precisely because they never did partnerships. The rest of the French aviation industry was merged into Airbus or Dassault and basically vanished.
The truth for the Eurofighter/Rafale split is they never could agree on workshare and Dassault does not believe in collaborative projects. Period. Dassault managed to outlive all other aircraft manufacturers in France precisely because they never did partnerships. The rest of the French aviation industry was merged into Airbus or Dassault and basically vanished.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
That’s my point exactly. Though Euro fighter is a multi role fighter. It was behind schedule.
By the time the Eurofighter program was rolling the UK had decades earlier divested from naval fixed wing for “commando carriers” the rest of European Naval Aviation was rotors or harriers with similar lines. So France had to go it alone and they almost didn’t have a ship to land it on. The end of history era of the 1990s when the Soviet threat disappeared and the Russian navy had to literally steal their Flagship incomplete from the yard.
By the time the Eurofighter program was rolling the UK had decades earlier divested from naval fixed wing for “commando carriers” the rest of European Naval Aviation was rotors or harriers with similar lines. So France had to go it alone and they almost didn’t have a ship to land it on. The end of history era of the 1990s when the Soviet threat disappeared and the Russian navy had to literally steal their Flagship incomplete from the yard.