European Military News, Reports, Data, etc.

Soldier30

Senior Member
Registered Member
In Germany, Rheinmetall introduced the new KF51 Panther tank. For the first time since World War II, the tank is again called "Panther". There is little information about the tank, it is known that it has a new 130-mm cannon and a coaxial 12.7-mm machine gun. The new gun was introduced back in 2016, in response to information about the Russian Armata tank. For the first time in German tank building, the gun has a full-fledged automatic loader, where 20 shells are loaded, but after they finish, the rest must be loaded manually. On the KF51 Panther tank, you can install a remote-controlled machine gun of 7.62 mm caliber. The principle of "transparent armor" is implemented in the vehicle, the crew sees the situation around the tank with the help of screens. The tower can integrate a system for launching HERO 120 kamikaze drones and reconnaissance UAVs. The tank has passive protection and reactive protection built into the body, like the "Armata", as well as some kind of "active protection". The crew of the tank is 3 people and it is not placed in an armored capsule like the "Armata", but classically in the tower, the fourth crew member can control the drones. The weight of the KF51 Panther tank is 59 tons, the cruising range on one gas station is 500 kilometers, the price is unknown. The KF51 Panther tank has not yet been put into mass production.

 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Dassault does not believe in collaborative projects. Period.
So France had to go it alone and they almost didn’t have a ship to land it on.

The elephant in the room is that Franco-German military industrial integration has issues beyond corporate competition. Once you integrate MICs, there are no U-turns. Dassault/France is merely following de Gaulle's principle. And so is Rheinmetall/Germany with this "Panther."

Hence, the geopolitics. This is why I'm skeptical of the MGCS/FCAS.
 

Broccoli

Senior Member
I don’t think it’s geopolitical but more one upmanship. The original Panther Panzerkampfwagen V was a MAN AG design manufactured by Daimler-Benz of Mercedes fame and MHN who did survive the bombing of Germany.
The EMBT and KF51 are similar in some aspects but the EMBT has stalled primarily as it’s just a modified Leclerc turret on a modified Leopard 2 hull. With the addition of a 30mm canon. Otherwise it’s a chimera of existing products without a serious improvement. I mean it’s packing Leclerc’s 120mm with now only 22 rounds. As the 4th man is sitting where the hull ammo on Leopard 2 hull would have been. Its the what if tank. KNDS is a joint venture between French Nexter makers of Leclerc, German KMW and Rhinemetall. The EMBT seems to symbolically show the problem with this venture The French on top the German as the horse power. Rather than trying to develop a new tank system they seem to have been pushed to the status quo and just taking half of two good tanks and bolting new stuff on.

KF51 by contrast is a clean sheet above the turret ring and modified leopard 2 below. It takes the same bullet points.
Automatic loader yes with only 20 rounds,
Hard kill APS
UAS launcher
4 man crew,
12.7mm coax with 7.62x51mm R
but adds to them with that 130mm gun.
They offer it in the KF51 line as an export product, the original Panther Tank though yes design for the Third Riche served longer in the French Army 1944-1950 than the German 1943-1944. Though I am sure Rhinemetall would love to see the iron cross on the side of Panther, like with the Lynx family they would likely content themselves with selling Kf51 to every other major military power with good NATO relations or at least licensing features from it.
As a product it seems more like a tank design that could meet threats out into 2050.

20 isn't all that low number of rounds especially since it's 130mm shells.

Russian T-80BV tanker told in his telegraph channel that they are going into battle with only 10 rounds (9 HE and 1 APFSDS) in the carousell because it lessens the change of whole tank blowing up with it's crew after ATGM hit.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
A very nice model of the new German F126 frigate. Displacement is defined at 10,400 metric tons, more than a Flight III Burke: I think this will make it the largest frigate in the world.

She will have an unusual mix of C-band and X-band radars, in line with the fact that this is a ASW ship with only 16 VLS, so long range air surveillance is de-emphasized . The X-band radar is the new Thales Nederland APAR 2 GaN AESA with a full digital front end: according to the manufacturer the first and only digital X-band radar in the world. That’s quite an achievement at X-band frequencies.

 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
A very nice model of the new German F126 frigate. Displacement is defined at 10,400 metric tons, more than a Flight III Burke: I think this will make it the largest frigate in the world.

She will have an unusual mix of C-band and X-band radars, in line with the fact that this is a ASW ship with only 16 VLS, so long range air surveillance is de-emphasized . The X-band radar is the new Thales Nederland APAR 2 GaN AESA with a full digital front end: according to the manufacturer the first and only digital X-band radar in the world. That’s quite an achievement at X-band frequencies.

One thing that caught my attention is that the Dutch APAR2 will have over the horizon capability: they claim a 80km range against surface targets (3:31 mark). If that covers submarine periscopes, then that’s quite a potent capability.
 
Last edited:

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
These German frigates are under equipped with weapons as usual. But I agree that the design looks visually pleasing.

Yeah... it does look pleasing. Lots of visual similarities with 055 too... except without the four panels of dual band giant phased arrays or an integrated mast that's quite as "futuristic" looking as the now nearly 10 year old 055 design. Actually Type 055's design is well older than 10 years old since the first one was in build 8 years ago.
 

Zichan

Junior Member
Registered Member
Yeah... it does look pleasing. Lots of visual similarities with 055 too... except without the four panels of dual band giant phased arrays or an integrated mast that's quite as "futuristic" looking as the now nearly 10 year old 055 design. Actually Type 055's design is well older than 10 years old since the first one was in build 8 years ago.
The two ships are designed for very different missions: one is an ASW frigate, the other is a guided missile destroyer with emphasis on anti-air.

The radars on the F126 frigate are significantly weaker in air search capability compared to Type 346B. They are optimized for medium range self-defense and horizon search, with apparently some over the horizon search capability as well.

As most modern ASW ships, this frigate has an electric drive important for fuel economy and ASW patrol efficiency.

It seems to emphasize survivability or staying power to some extent, by widely separating its propulsion and sensors into two masts.

The curious thing is that it is a Dutch design (Damen), even though the customer is the German Navy.
 
Top