Europe Refugee Crisis

while "Controversial agreement means that any refugees arriving on Greek shores from Sunday would be sent back to Turkey." quote from
Turkey and EU reach landmark deal on refugees
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Czech Police recently organized drills officially called "Wave" for the case Migrants anyway brake into Europe, and the border between Austria and Germany was closed: then Migrants would invade the Czech Rep. territory on their way to Mrs. Merkel (Czech Interior Minister said, for the record, Migrants would be detained and sent back to Austria; while it's about one thousand miles from Turkey-Greece border to Austria-Czech Rep. border, it's of course time to get ready, for real!!)
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Absolutely, and the ONLY thing poor old Bro Obama ever got right was the Pacific Pivot, but should have kept our mouths shut about it, instead of making it a PR disaster!
It might not have been such a PR disaster if Obama is capable of actually getting along with any other world leader outside of his northern brother Trudeau.

But yeah, I completely agree with kwaigonegin on this situation. Turkey is going to bargain and get whatever it wants from Europe, because EU is desperate. The eurozone experiment was always going to break up some point, but this will drastically accelerate that.
 
... The eurozone experiment was always going to break up some point, but this will drastically accelerate that.
now I skimmed through
Britons and Europe: the survey results
Ahead of the momentous referendum on 23 June, the Observer has commissioned an extensive nationwide survey into British attitudes and beliefs about Europe
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and there's Migrants-related part if you're interested, somewhere in the middle
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
One of the reason of a possible failure of EU experiment is that member countries do not intend to become a member "province" of a unified country, in other words, to make EU succeed, members must give up part and eventually all national sovereignty which includes national border control and policing. In this spirit, EU would have been directly enforcing the Greek border with Turkey, this would make the EU border more defendable, this would also avoid illegal immigrant moving around to exploit the different national policies of member states.

Another failure of EU is the disagreement among member states regarding principles of refugees (who is, and how to deal with), priorities (self interests and self-imposed moral obligations). This is once again a matter of unified EU (as a country) or not, as I said above.

My point is "either Europeans move ever closer to become a single country, or keep a good distance among them, going half way is the worst option like baking a bread half done."

And, EU has been caught by the reality (own sustainability) and idealist moral high ground (human right, right of asylum). After many years of moral lecturing other countries to follow suit (pressing China to recognize North Korean illegal immigrants as refugees for example, pressing Thailand, Indonesia for similar matters), it is very difficult for EU to reject the influx, to get out of the unsustainable and unrealistic dream of being refugee friendly.

I think the current deal between EU and Turkey is one of the many steps EU is going to take to climb down from the high-horse. However, this deal and possible future measures would not be on preferable terms to EU due to the reasons I mentioned above.

BTW, the rise of the racist groups, right extremist, extrem right political groups are only natural outcomes (not desired by us) due to the bankruptcy of the main stream political practices. Voters have no better choices than the two extremes, either a Idealist main stream or whoever promising to shut foreigners out. A realistic politician in the middle ground seems to have no chance in the current system for that they would be perceived as selfish by the Idealist left, and weak and non-charismatic compared to the extreme right.

My point is Idealist utopia will only lead to disaster (sometimes taken over by right extremists), the old way of communist experiments failed in disasters, so will the western idealist, no exceptions. People have to stand firmly on the ground and deal with the reality with the means they possess.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Exceptionally early to start blaming these attacks on refugees since there cannot possibly yet be a shred of evidence to support that theory.

As such, such accusations only really show the bias of the poster.

Terrorists carry out attacks, but it's the material support that enables them to do so. Without that support, they are just a few angry people with extremely limited ability to cause mass casualty attacks. As such, getting a few terrorist foot soldiers into the boarders of Europe (or any country) without the means to equip and arm them will not allow anyone to launch the kind of attacks that were carried out today,

Terrorists need a support network to get them materials, weapons, transport, money and all the other things they need to launch such attacks.

It is these materials and weapons that are key to both launching and stopping terrorists attacks. If a terrorist network can smuggle those items into a country, it could get people in alongside those items much easier, faster and more reliably than having some guys spend weeks or months trying to get in with refugee traffic.

I have said it before, and I will say it again now, but in my view, there are few groups of people better experienced to spot would be terrorists than those fleeing from them, and who may well have suffered under their rule before getting away.

People who spend weeks or months traveling together talk, those who don't instantly raise suspicion.

Anyone posing as someone from somewhere in Syria might easily foot your average boarder security, or even specialist counter terrorism agents, but anyone from the region they are claiming to be from could easily tell that they are not who they claim to be from their local knowledge and experience of accents, customs and a hundred other tiny details outsiders could not possibly effectively master.

Refugees are also extensively screened at most boarder crossings in the first place.

Compare that to the couple minutes a boarder agency employee spends scrutinising your average airport traveler, especially if he/she holds the 'right' passport from European or American countries (and we know ISIS has plenty of foot soldiers from those nations) and there is no question with route of entry carries the far greater risks of detection for terrorist attackers.
 

kwaigonegin

Colonel
Exceptionally early to start blaming these attacks on refugees since there cannot possibly yet be a shred of evidence to support that theory.

As such, such accusations only really show the bias of the poster.

Terrorists carry out attacks, but it's the material support that enables them to do so. Without that support, they are just a few angry people with extremely limited ability to cause mass casualty attacks. As such, getting a few terrorist foot soldiers into the boarders of Europe (or any country) without the means to equip and arm them will not allow anyone to launch the kind of attacks that were carried out today,

Terrorists need a support network to get them materials, weapons, transport, money and all the other things they need to launch such attacks.

It is these materials and weapons that are key to both launching and stopping terrorists attacks. If a terrorist network can smuggle those items into a country, it could get people in alongside those items much easier, faster and more reliably than having some guys spend weeks or months trying to get in with refugee traffic.

I have said it before, and I will say it again now, but in my view, there are few groups of people better experienced to spot would be terrorists than those fleeing from them, and who may well have suffered under their rule before getting away.

People who spend weeks or months traveling together talk, those who don't instantly raise suspicion.

Anyone posing as someone from somewhere in Syria might easily foot your average boarder security, or even specialist counter terrorism agents, but anyone from the region they are claiming to be from could easily tell that they are not who they claim to be from their local knowledge and experience of accents, customs and a hundred other tiny details outsiders could not possibly effectively master.

Refugees are also extensively screened at most boarder crossings in the first place.

Compare that to the couple minutes a boarder agency employee spends scrutinising your average airport traveler, especially if he/she holds the 'right' passport from European or American countries (and we know ISIS has plenty of foot soldiers from those nations) and there is no question with route of entry carries the far greater risks of detection for terrorist attackers.

While I get the gist of your message, from a technical standpoint it isn't that hard to build and acquire materials to make an IED. More so these days with the proliferation of how-tos on the internet.

As to the bombers I can only speculate that they are probably not recent refugees (at least not all of the perps) but Jura's point is still valid. They may or may not have been recent refugees but most certainly they were products of one. Almost 100% of home grown European terrorists were either foreign fighters or disenfranchised young men/women born to refugee/asylum seekers.

Unlike the US, Arab refugees in Europe typically congregate in small enclaves of big cities and almost never assimilate to the general populace. These places are prime breeding ground for terrorism and other acts of violence. Young minds especially those who see themselves with bleak or no future and having much angst against the government and the general society can be very easily influence by radical teachings and theology.

The fundamentals are not too different than inner city youths of America except this one is global and also has the theological/religious aspect to it which makes it much more dangerous and deadly.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
While I get the gist of your message, from a technical standpoint it isn't that hard to build and acquire materials to make an IED. More so these days with the proliferation of how-tos on the internet.

A fact well known to security and counter-terrorism experts, who would be closely monitoring the sales and purchase patterns of any items that could be so abused.

You could buy tiny quantities of the stuff you need as to not raise flags, but that also massively increase the time you need to gather enough materials to make a bomb. The longer a cell remains active, the greater the chance of discovery by police.

Drugs and people smuggling does happen. All the time. And those are done by common criminals who are out to make a profit.

A terrorist organisation like ISIS, with its vast wealth and probably support from several sovereign states, could be far more sophisticated in their operations and attempts.

So I don't think it's very clear cut at all which is more risky for the terrorist - either spend months or even years in the target country/city slowly accumulating dual use items in order to extract enough materials to make a big bomb; or smuggle materials and people through in bulk days or even hours before launching an attack.

As to the bombers I can only speculate that they are probably not recent refugees (at least not all of the perps) but Jura's point is still valid. They may or may not have been recent refugees but most certainly they were products of one. Almost 100% of home grown European terrorists were either foreign fighters or disenfranchised young men/women born to refugee/asylum seekers.

No, that's entirely self contradictory! One cannot be a 'home grown' terrorist and a foreign refugee at the same time!

The fact that you have second, third or later generation immigrants turning to terrorism isn't damning on the immigrants ancestors who first came to European countries, but actually on the host countries that turned immigrants' children into terrorists!

I have never ever heard of even a single case where those second+ gen immigrants who later became terrorists were taught to be terrorists by their parents or grandparents, you know, the original immigrants!

This entire line of proto-ethnic discrimination is a massive part of the problem that made so many later generations of immigrants into terrorists in the first place.

It's the world's saddest chicken and egg question, which came first, discrimination/alienation or radicalisation?

But it's actually entirely the wrong question, especially in light of recent developments.

Europe has already failed spectacularly with its politics of fear and discrimination against migrants from certain parts of the world and who has a certain shared ethnic and religious background.

Instead of abandoning a clearly failed policy and trying something that has actually worked well in the past - embracing and actively integrating new arrivals like as done in the US, most (with the notable, noble exception of Germany) are actually taking all the bad parts of the old policies that helped spawn all those late gen home grown terrorists and making it exponentially worse in every way possible!

You have millions of innocents fleeing war, persecution and death, most with sometime child-like naivety about how wonderful they think the west is, risking death (with a heartbreaking number of them dying on the way), and then seeing all their hopes, dreams and sacrifices brutally stamped out by jackbooted masked boarder security guards who often use excessive brutal forced against desperate refugees.

One could hardly purposely create a better breeding ground for hatred and radiacliasation!

It's not the few mythical undercover terrorists masquerading as refugees that Europe should be truely concerned about. It's creating concentration camp style refugee towns on its very boarders where hopes and dreams of millions wither and die, leaving only dispare, anger and hatred in its place!
 
something dated Nov 15, 2015
...

wrong, Jean-Claude! your Political Correctness brings menace to Europe in the form of yet unidentified Islamist Commandos, and it's time to stop this before they hit again, and more of them arrives! I suggest this:
  1. Help Turkey with Refugee Camps at its south/eastern border, so that the conditions there are as comfortable as they can be (Turkey is the second biggest NATO Military so it shouldn't have problems with protecting those people there). Some Refugees will flee, so the next point:
  2. Help Greece with protecting Schengen Area borders for example by sending NATO Navies in constable role around islands which Greeks say are too close. Refugees who get caught, are to be sent back. Still some Refugees will pass through, so the next point:
  3. Help protecting Schengen Area borders also north to Greece, for real. Refugees who get caught, at the border or behind it, are to be sent back where they started (point 1 above).
...
... and more than three months after, I can only add:
Say What Is Going On With So Called Refugees, Which Is They Are Trespassing, And Keep Trespassers Out Of Here!!
 

solarz

Brigadier
IIRC, the Belgian police were still on active alert against a terrorist attack when this happened. Add to that the fact that the Paris attacks happened during a time of heightened security, it seems that these terror networks have the ability to carry out attacks even with strengthened police presence.
 
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