Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

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antiterror13

Brigadier
The military budget is not going to triple in China.

China doesn't yet have an economy which is large enough to persuade the US that it will lose any arms race.
That has to wait till 2030 at least, when the Chinese economy might be approaching 2x the USA

But you are right that China already has the capacity to build a military much larger than the USA, but that is not to say it will definitely be used.

I believe Chinese military budget will be at least triple to around >$500B (nominal) by 2030

From 2010 to 2020, Chinese military budget become 2.5x .... so in 2030, 3x is very possible

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Remember that Chinese military budget excludes many things, i.e pension/veteran, R&D and weapon purchase from overseas, etc
 
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Bellum_Romanum

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Registered Member
Fair point. I'm glad China has awaken and removed it's rosy tinted glasses of West. If that's your point, I wholeheartedly agree, I wish China stop worshipping the West, China should understand that US goodwill will not last forever, and invest heavily into indigenization and self-sufficient in high-tech semiconductors.

You make a good point, China is well positioned since it has technocrats in charge and has a meritocratic system. It is better adapted to new challenges since it's highly flexible and adaptable to change. All I'm trying to say is Republicans are truthfully honest about stabbing you in your face, while Democrats are sneakily stabbing you in the back with a smile on their face. But I would much rather deal with a Democrat who is atleast somewhat semi-civilized, than the blatantly nasty racist fascists like Trump and Pompeo. Literally they are a modern day Hitler who would revive Yellow Peril 2.0 if they could.
I value your educated opinions on vaccines and other biomedical areas that frankly I have no clue about because that's not an area or field I immersed myself with thoroughly, unless of course you were just being facetious with your claim that you're doing a PHD in medical science related field.

Also, I don't mind being corrected about my views on pretty much everything so long as the argument presented are based on sound solid logic and fact based. But I don't want to devolve the debate into personal invectives because it's frankly unproductive and it brings out the provincial mindset and attitude that I have long suppressed lol. Anyhow, this topic of issue will not be our first nor last disagreement, but I hope going forward that we can agree to disagree without flinging shit unto each other. If I happen to break such a rule in the future please call my behavior out and I will happily recalibrate.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Fair point. I'm glad China has awaken and removed it's rosy tinted glasses of West. If that's your point, I wholeheartedly agree, I wish China stop worshipping the West, China should understand that US goodwill will not last forever, and invest heavily into indigenization and self-sufficient in high-tech semiconductors.

You make a good point, China is well positioned since it has technocrats in charge and has a meritocratic system. It is better adapted to new challenges since it's highly flexible and adaptable to change. All I'm trying to say is Republicans are truthfully honest about stabbing you in your face, while Democrats are sneakily stabbing you in the back with a smile on their face. But I would much rather deal with a Democrat who is atleast somewhat semi-civilized, than the blatantly nasty racist fascists like Trump and Pompeo. Literally they are a modern day Hitler who would revive Yellow Peril 2.0 if they could.
Democrats and Republicans are different sides of the same coin.

In fact I would rather have Republicans on charge because that will only serve China by accelerating US' downfall from its hegemony position by alienating US' allies and making internal contradictions more intense.

That China might have to "pay" more in sanctions because the Republicans are trigger-happy, is a small price to pay for gaining the above benefits.

For example, would China not prefer having the next president be a crazy Republican who would destroy their alliance with Europe and drag US' reputation through the mud in the world stage?

Now, in my opinion, if another crazy Republican is elected in 2024 then that would spell the end of US's hegemony and greatly increase China's status in the world stage as a mature and responsible great power
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
I believe Chinese military budget will be at least triple to around >$500B (nominal) by 2030

From 2010 to 2020, Chinese military budget become 2.5x .... so in 2030, 3x is very possible

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Remember that Chinese military budget excludes many things, i.e pension/veteran, R&D and weapon purchase from overseas, etc

Very possible.
In any case, a Chinese military budget tripling by 2040 is virtually guaranteed.

But we were actually discussing the 2018-2025 timeframe

By 2030, I expect the US to realise that it's not possible to compete with China, because it is too big and technologically independent.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Democrats and Republicans are different sides of the same coin.

In fact I would rather have Republicans on charge because that will only serve China by accelerating US' downfall from its hegemony position by alienating US' allies and making internal contradictions more intense.

That China might have to "pay" more in sanctions because the Republicans are trigger-happy, is a small price to pay for gaining the above benefits.

For example, would China not prefer having the next president be a crazy Republican who would destroy their alliance with Europe and drag US' reputation through the mud in the world stage?

Now, in my opinion, if another crazy Republican is elected in 2024 then that would spell the end of US's hegemony and greatly increase China's status in the world stage as a mature and responsible great power

Of course, the caveat is that China has progressed significantly in terms of technology independence from the US.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Democrats and Republicans are different sides of the same coin.
I agree and understand you are trying to that both Democrats and Republicans promote 'American exceptionalism' and US imperialism, but the way they do is pretty different. Trump has a sledge-hammer, whereas Biden is all talk, no action. If you were China, you would much prefer Biden over Trump, because Biden allows US allies to remain ambiguous (e.g. reap lucrative China trade, and reap US security protection at same time). With Trump, you were forced to choose sides (e.g. ban or not ban Huawei 5G) which definitely alienates US allies, but if push came to shove, they will choose US over China.

In fact I would rather have Republicans on charge because that will only serve China by accelerating US' downfall from its hegemony position by alienating US' allies and making internal contradictions more intense.

US already lost it's hegemonic position with it's disastrous blunders in Middle East, excessive indebtedness, and financial crisis. That's why they elected a crazy person like Trump, they wanted to try something new rather than another corrupt corporatist blood-sucker like Hillary Clinton. Also, US disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan probably highlights contradictions, but do US allies care? South Korea which sent troops there actually is welcoming 400 Afghan refugees and repeating US propaganda about 'human rights' and 'diversity'. Talk about being a cuck to the US. Esp. after what Trump did to fuck up the Korean situation and leave with no achievements.

That China might have to "pay" more in sanctions because the Republicans are trigger-happy, is a small price to pay for gaining the above benefits.

If US would break alliances in exchange for 10-25% tariffs on $500 Billion, then that is really cheap and cost-effective for China.
For example, would China not prefer having the next president be a crazy Republican who would destroy their alliance with Europe and drag US' reputation through the mud in the world stage?

But I don't think Asian and European alliances that was built on blood from World Wars will be easily broken over 'diplomacy-by-twitter' or mean words on Twitter.

Dragging US reputation through mud, we already see that with Afghanistan and even earlier in Vietnam war.... US allies don't care so long as US is rich and provides security protection. They won't choose China just because China is rich, because China doesn't offer security protection.... you basically need a World War victory in order to break alliances these days. For example, SK and Japan won't break as US allies without a Chinese victory in a big war. Twitter-mean words don't break those alliances, or even NATO.
Now, in my opinion, if another crazy Republican is elected in 2024 then that would spell the end of US's hegemony and greatly increase China's status in the world stage as a mature and responsible great power
China is already a Second Superpower and US hegemony is already gone.

Electing a Republican would just mean US allies will lose the freedom to be ambiguous and play both sides. They will be forced to choose a side, and that probably won't be China. China would want Biden because US allies can still be ambiguous and play both sides under Biden. With another crazy Republican, they probably have to choose a side. (e.g. ban Huawei 5G)
 
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AndrewS

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Registered Member
Dragging US reputation through mud, we already see that with Afghanistan and even earlier in Vietnam war.... US allies don't care so long as US is rich and provides security protection. They won't choose China just because China is rich, because China doesn't offer security protection.... you basically need a World War victory in order to break alliances these days. For example, SK and Japan won't break as US allies without a Chinese victory in a big war. Twitter-mean words don't break those alliances, or even NATO.

I disagree.

You don't need a actual war to break a US security alliance, but you do need a *crisis* to trigger this.

Say China has an economy twice the size, and decides to build a Navy which is also twice the size.
That implies 20 Chinese supercarriers versus 10 US supercarriers in the Western Pacific.

It should be obvious to Japan and Korea that a US security alliance is not worth the paper it is printed upon.
 

Gatekeeper

Brigadier
Registered Member
I almost have a heart attack at the thought of Pompeo as SecState for another four years.



And it's also worth noting that the #1 goal of Sino-Soviet alliance was to counter the United States. Look around you, do you really want a repeat of the Cold War V2.0? By allying with a former shell of superpower (Russia) again for a Cold War 2.0?

If anything, China is a Second Superpower precisely because of US-China relationships...China achieved more in 40 years relationship with US than in all 40 years of Sino-Soviet relations.

But this is not China's choosing. It's forced upon them by the belligerent of Trump. And Biden hasn't walk it back at all.

The Sino-American split is not a choice China made. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama made that choice over a decade ago and the GOP concurred. If you cannot accept that the relationship ended over ten years ago by American hands then you need to re-evaluate a lot of things.

Exactly, see my point above.

that's your point, I wholeheartedly agree, I wish China stop worshipping the West, China should understand that US goodwill will not last forever, and invest heavily into indigenization and self-sufficient in high-tech semiconductors

Goodwill? What goodwill? Anything the U.S. does it does in its own interest.

Remember that Chinese military budget excludes many things, i.e pension/veteran, R&D and weapon purchase from overseas, etc

Yes. Correct, but the U.S. also exclude items like nuclear energy. But, like yourself, it does include pensions and medical care for vets. I'm not sure the exact figures. But I'm willing to bet, it's going to be quite substantial. Maybe 20% of entire budget or more. It's going to hampered U.S. inventory for sure.
 

Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
With Trump, you were forced to choose sides (e.g. ban or not ban Huawei 5G) which definitely alienates US allies, but if push came to shove, they will choose US over China.
Yes, but that also consumed a lot of US' diplomatic capital. The US achieved its purpose but at what cost? They did all this effort just for 1 company

At a net balance, the US came out of this way more negatively than China. All this diplomatic capital could have been spent far more better than at just 1 company.

The way I see it, US can try this another 3-5 times before the world gettting alienated with it. A good price for China to pay if it means that the US will gather the animosity of the the world

US already lost it's hegemonic position with it's disastrous blunders in Middle East, excessive indebtedness, and financial crisis. That's why they elected a crazy person like Trump, they wanted to try something new rather than another corrupt corporatist blood-sucker like Hillary Clinton
No. The US has suffered a lot, and thats mostly because of internal matter. If I could score US current position at the top it would be "A- -" hegemon. Just another "- -" and it would fall down to "B+++" which would place it at the league of the superowers along with China, which I would say is a "B-" superpower with an upwards trajectory

We shouldnt underestimate the US. They still are, ironically, the wealthiest country in the world and have deep deep connection with the elites of the world.


Also, US disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan probably highlights contradictions, but do US allies care? South Korea which sent troops there actually is welcoming 400 Afghan refugees and repeating US propaganda about 'human rights' and 'diversity'. Talk about being a cuck to the US. Esp. after what Trump did to fuck up the Korean situation and leave with no achievements.
Their allies care. This is just another wound on US' body. No it won't kill it, but it certainly damages it and makes it bleed. The US has already many such wounds. Yes, it is still a lion, but it is a wounded and bleeding lion.

The more wounds are accumulated, the more the animal will weaken. China should sit tight and occasionally knife it when opportunities arise.


If US would break alliances in exchange for 10-25% tariffs on $500 Billion, then that is really cheap and cost-effective for China.
I dont understand. The US didnt break any alliances with its tariffs. Instead it gave China an excuse to reduce its dependency to the US and increase its imports from other regions (e.g ASEAN) thus bringing them closer to its sphere of influence. Plus did you forget that Trump shred his "over-ready" trade deal in that region, leading them to accept RCEP? Another win for China.

But I don't think Asian and European alliances that was built on blood from World Wars will be easily broken over 'diplomacy-by-twitter' or mean words on Twitter.
You are right on that. But dont forget that during Trump, it wasn't only words and Twitter. It was also by real action, like increasing tariffs, forcing them to choose on 5G, increasing aggresion on Indo-Pacific which alarmed ASEAN, cozied up to Russia which irritated EU etc.

If another such president comes then its lights out for the US. First time they can say it was ignorance or bad luck. Second time they wont have such an excuse anymore.


Dragging US reputation through mud, we already see that with Afghanistan and even earlier in Vietnam war.... US allies don't care so long as US is rich and provides security protection. They won't choose China just because China is rich, because China doesn't offer security protection....
China for now is focused on its region. Economic dominance is already there, and it is increasing by the day. Security, is now still under progress under the modernisation program. As long as China can become the regional power then that means that it can control conflict in the region.

That means that as long as China is the top dog in the region, there wont be any more challenges and threats there.

Ofc this is for the future. I estimate that by 2025-2026 there will be some progress, and by 2030, China would be able to dislodge the US and start becoming a great power in the region (still not the greatest regional power, IMO Taiwan needs to be solved first)


China is already a Second Superpower and US hegemony is already gone.
As said just some lines above, I disagree. US is bordering on losing its hegemonic position but it still hasn't lost it yet. It is coming though, just wait for a couple more years.


Electing a Republican would just mean US allies will lose the freedom to be ambiguous and play both sides.
Nope. Even during Trump when he was threatening them, they still remained neutral. At most, the US puppets fell in line, and he succeeded on 5G.

As I said, the US still has the diplomatic capital to force countries taking its position on specific economic industries, but it is bot unlimited. After using all of its diplomatic capital it would have alienated the rest of the world (sans puppets)

They will be forced to choose a side, and that probably won't be China.
Disagree. China is now a bigger trading partner than the US for most of the world. Give it a couple more years and China would be in an even stronger position. The world will remain neutral, that is unless the US does something stupid and touches their bottom line. In such a case they will turn to the China
 
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AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
No one is completely prepared for war. I don't think Chinese people will accept independent Taiwan It is redline and it is in the law of "anti secessionist " They spelled out when they are going to invade it is for everybody to see. So if US egged Taiwan for de jure independent China has no choice but to declare war come what may. CCP legitimacy depend on the following precept

1 Improving people life
2 providing efficient and orderly government
3 maintaining Chinese territorial integrity

That is the political perspective.

But from the military perspective, an independent Taiwan could become a bastion for US military forces.

Taiwan is next to the Northern and Southern Approaches to the Chinese mainland, so forces could attack the Chinese mainland, strangle Chinese seaborne trade and contain the Chinese military to the Western Pacific.
 
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