Discussing Biden's Potential China Policy

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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Yes they lecture us. We just lecture them right back. China and US are both big boys and they didn't get their FEELINGs hurt in the process. When you are a superpower, everyone wants something from you, everyone complain to and about you. the first thing you do is grow some thicker skin and carry on. On the other hand, do you really want the US stop lecturing other countries about human right and actually improve their own human rights, take care of their own people, and fiercely protect their own economy and jobs? in other words, do you REALLY want the US to behave as well as China?

About Orlin, he is clearly friendly and just towards China (for the interest of HIS COUNTRY of course). If you talk about someone like him in that kind of tune, how do you interact with westeners in your daily life? I thought we Chinese people pride ourselves for our 礼义廉耻.

We Chinese people failed to properly handle the division among us about Taiwan and HK and gave the west a chance to hurt us. Am I frustrated by some of the radical movements in HK and Taiwan? Yes. But I want to ask you, how is your name calling suppose to help the Chinese people heal and unite? How is your name calling making China better and stronger?
Well looking the world thru rose color glasses is the first thing that you should discarded. You should see the world as it is and not thru rose color glasses of your goody goody 2 shoes. And that is basically the problem with Chinese people specially the one that come from mainland. They are so naïve. Right now we are at war already and it is call cold war and going to kinetic war . What they did in Irak and Syria, Libya is to demonize, dehumanize the opponent with slander, lie and fabricated fact like what they did in Xinjiang and Hongkong basically preparing their people for war . And you still live in cloud 9 of peace and well meaning American mind boggling as to the naivety of some people here Read this video

The West makes all kinds of horrendous claims about human rights in China -- but what evidence is there really? A new report out from Italian researchers gets at what is real and what is warmongering propaganda. KJ Noh, peace activist, scholar on the geopolitics of Asia & organizer with Pivot to Peace, breaks it down. Link to the report here:
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Here is the report
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Last edited:

victoon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Lol Blinken also does these human rights lectures, are you saying Blinken is also engaging China?
Engagement in US China policy (which is what this thread is all about) means the US open its door to China for interaction and business, while believing that once China and the Chinese people see their ways, China will voluntarily change to be more like the US. The opposite is the Containment policy, which the US close its doors unless China changes. Obviously both camps realized China will not change the way the US wanted. So the engagement camp is shifting to focusing on cooperation on major while the containment camp more focused on on keeping China down. I think the engagement camp would drop some sanctions to trade for some cooperation but the containment camp would rather not solve climate problem than possibly losing dominance to China.
Besides you were sympathetic to these lecture but now you are changing your tune?
No one but Chinese high up knows what's going on in Xinjiang. We are all guessing here. my guess is China is accelerating sinicization and urbanization. I think there is likely some minor human rights infringements and short term pain for those involved but good for the longer term. the infringement could be very strongly persuade young people to work in factories far away, not truly volunteer vocational school for adults so they can learn more Chinese and general education for the illiterate, changing science edu from minority language to Chinese despite objection. calling this stuff genocide is total cognitive warfare. But I don't think there is no suffering either knowing some of the past pains along the ethnic fault line and mutual suspicion. I do think this need to be done but I sympathize those who have to go through it, knowing I and my family don't have to, and hoping that it is done is a way that will promote trust and reduce existing hatred and tension. So if someone like Orlin say 'you can't do that to your own people' in private, I'd say I share your passion of reducing suffering but we believe this short term pain will eventually lead to better lives for everyone. If someone like Blinken say what he did say in public, our diplomats gave an a very appropriate response.
China was all for globalization until recently due to US sanctions.
I believe every country is for globalization when it suites them and bend the rules when they can.

for your other points I think we can probably leave them at 和而不同
 

victoon

Junior Member
Registered Member
Well looking the world thru rose color glasses is the first thing that you should discarded. You should see the world as it is and not thru rose color glasses of your goody goody 2 shoes. And that is basically the problem with Chinese people specially the one that come from mainland. They are so naïve. Right now we are at war already and it is call cold war and going to kinetic war . What they did in Irak and Syria, Libya is to demonize, dehumanize the opponent with slander, lie and fabricated fact like what they did in Xinjiang and Hongkong basically preparing their people for war . And you still live in cloud 9 of peace and well meaning American mind boggling as to the naivety of some people here Read this video

The West makes all kinds of horrendous claims about human rights in China -- but what evidence is there really? A new report out from Italian researchers gets at what is real and what is warmongering propaganda. KJ Noh, peace activist, scholar on the geopolitics of Asia & organizer with Pivot to Peace, breaks it down. Link to the report here:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


Here is the report
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
I watch Tibet travel vlogs more than Xinjiang vlogs. There are still tons of hardship in China. What do you do when people don't want to send their kids to school? It's a tough problem for China. You push too hard, there could be ethnic unrest. You don't do anything, how can you let some Chinese people live like this? I think Xi is very cool headed, focusing on improving people's lives rather than all out cold war with the US. Maybe I am wrong, all I can see is China (and EU) doesn't want a cold war. they want to improve lives. I don't really know if Biden wants one, but the GOP definitely do. the west is not one monolithic entity. Don't we work with Germany and France better than others, even though there are tons of forces in them that are anti-China?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
I watch Tibet travel vlogs more than Xinjiang vlogs. There are still tons of hardship in China. What do you do when people don't want to send their kids to school? It's a tough problem for China. You push too hard, there could be ethnic unrest. You don't do anything, how can you let some Chinese people live like this? I think Xi is very cool headed, focusing on improving people's lives rather than all out cold war with the US. Maybe I am wrong, all I can see is China (and EU) doesn't want a cold war. they want to improve lives. I don't really know if Biden wants one, but the GOP definitely do. the west is not one monolithic entity. Don't we work with Germany and France better than others, even though there are tons of forces in them that are anti-China?
I am avid observer of Tibet since long time ago. Eradicating poverty in tibet is not easy and it will take generation to eliminate all the poverty in Tibet . Because of the very low base that they started. in 50's most of Tibetan live as slave or indenture farmer to the land lord and monastry. They are less than 1 million. Now they are 3.5 million people and the average life is going from 38 to 70 So progress has been made. The only way to break the cycle of poverty is thru education. But I know a lot of nomad refuse to send children to school even when it is free and they get allowances . Because they were short hand to care for their animal. The school even send teacher to this nomad camp to prod parent to send the children to school.

Compare what they have before I don't see anything wrong with the video. It poor compare to living standard in EU or US but they have big house over their head and they have enough to eat . I don't see they are emaciated or malnourish. They seem to be healthy. You cannot expect to lift middle age society to modern society in one generation. It take a lot of generation. But Tibetan middle class is growing and people living in the city has comfort and reasonable living standard. And more and more Tibetan living in grassland are moved to the new settlement

Here is a good vlog on Tibetan life in the city

Here is his channel
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

poverty alleviation in Tibet

Poverty alleviation in Qamdo

Tibetan life in urban setting
 
Last edited:

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
I watch Tibet travel vlogs more than Xinjiang vlogs. There are still tons of hardship in China. What do you do when people don't want to send their kids to school? It's a tough problem for China. You push too hard, there could be ethnic unrest. You don't do anything, how can you let some Chinese people live like this? I think Xi is very cool headed, focusing on improving people's lives rather than all out cold war with the US. Maybe I am wrong, all I can see is China (and EU) doesn't want a cold war. they want to improve lives. I don't really know if Biden wants one, but the GOP definitely do. the west is not one monolithic entity. Don't we work with Germany and France better than others, even though there are tons of forces in them that are anti-China?
My response to you comes from a brilliant post on r/Sino and he happens to capture some of the nuances some of us Chinese feel about ourselves and our diverging views on China from the ashes of great struggle to her current rise and battle with the behemoth that is the U.S.

"Hi friends, I'm an overseas Chinese and long time lurker in this community. I don't post on Reddit but I just felt the urge to share some of my thoughts after watching the donghua 那年那兔那些事. I'm sure everyone that watched the donghua have experienced the emotional rollercoaster and understand my urge to open up Reddit and write an essay. Thanks in advance for reading my rant! Apologies in advance for slight incoherence since I'm writing in a highly emotional state without editing. I would also love to hear any views the community has about what I'm about to say.

Overall Thoughts

那年那兔那些事 is the best donghua I've ever watched and it's not even close. In just a few short minutes, each episode is able to reduce me to tears. There haven't been a single episode where I did not feel tears in the corner on my eye. It is an absolute must watch for anyone that identifies as Chinese, especially overseas Chinese that live in the West and are beginning to forget our heritage. It's a show that makes me feel proud to be Chinese while also being extremely heart wrenching. It is agonizing thinking about the humiliation our people have experienced by the hand of the western imperialist powers and Japan. Every time I think about the sacrifices our heroes have made to build China into a superpower, my heart breaks. Too many of our great comrades gave their lives to China to drag it from a dirt poor backwards country to a global powerhouse.

What lessons can we learn?

What makes the show great is that it shows the great achievements of our people without forgetting the heavy cost and sacrifices behind every one of them. It is quite a balanced take on modern Chinese history, and I really appreciate how it wasn't an arrogant propaganda piece that focuses on bragging. This is a Chinese donghua/manhua made for Chinese people, and it does little good to brag and puff out our chest. We can be confident and proud, but we must never forget the cost and the long road ahead for us. It didn't bitch and moan about lack of foreign support for China during our reconstruction, instead it highlighted the importance of self-reliance. 靠山山倒,靠人人跑, we have to rely on ourselves. Henry Kissinger, despite being an American imperialist have a great quote that we should always keep in mind "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests" and that not only applies to America, but to every country in the world.

The most important episodes for me were the ones about China's nuclear program, and touring the US after warming of US-China relations. For those who haven't watched the show, the episodes on China's nuclear program showed Chinese scientists literally giving up their lives, working in hazardous conditions to develop nuclear weapons because it was absolutely critical to our survival. Through the selfless sacrifice of some of our best and brightest, we developed the means to ensure the survival of our nation. Another episode is about Chinese officials touring the US and their aircraft carriers, looking on at amazement. It had a great dialogue between two rabbits where one asked if its possible to bring the infrastructure back to China, and the other replied that the US didn't work to build their infrastructure for others and that we need to work hard to build it ourselves. In the aircraft carrier, one rabbit asked "When will we have equipment this advanced?" the other replied "I don't know, but I know its better to start today than it is to start tomorrow, and if we start now, our children and their children might be able to enjoy it." They were envious of the US aircraft carrier and wanted to build one for ourselves, our very own. We were finally able to recently with the Shangdong aircraft carrier, and we have two more carriers the 003 and 004 in the works. All of this is the result of hard work and sacrifice. We didn't become this strong through bragging, but through real work.

We shouldn't bitch or moan about American policy towards China. They are imperialists with their own interests, we should remember that and rely on ourselves and build up our own strength. The US can play world police all it wants with American "allies" (aka vassals) and there isn't anything we can do about it. Complaining does no good, and in my opinion decoupling is the best thing that could've happened to us. We had a lot of bloat and greed as a result of China's economic growth, and we were too focused on making money and neglected core technologies while letting corruption grow. Everyone likes to make 小钱钱 (the term for money in the show), capitalism is very addictive and enticing, and that's why "Decoupling" is the best thing that could've happened to us since it reminded us to trim the fat and get back on the right track, and this is why Xi is the best leader we could've hoped for since he is here to put us back on the correct path. When we have our own core technologies, only then can we challenge the US for supremacy, we can't get there by making cheap consumer goods, which is why I am proud that the CPC has recognized it and focus on long term development. We should be proud of the fact that the United States has marked us as an enemy, this means despite their propaganda we pose a credible threat to US supremacy. You don't see US doing the same to India, why? Because they're not afraid of India. Speaking of India...
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
My response to you comes from a brilliant post on r/Sino and he happens to capture some of the nuances some of us Chinese feel about ourselves and our diverging views on China from the ashes of great struggle to her current rise and battle with the behemoth that is the U.S.

"Hi friends, I'm an overseas Chinese and long time lurker in this community. I don't post on Reddit but I just felt the urge to share some of my thoughts after watching the donghua 那年那兔那些事. I'm sure everyone that watched the donghua have experienced the emotional rollercoaster and understand my urge to open up Reddit and write an essay. Thanks in advance for reading my rant! Apologies in advance for slight incoherence since I'm writing in a highly emotional state without editing. I would also love to hear any views the community has about what I'm about to say.

Overall Thoughts

那年那兔那些事 is the best donghua I've ever watched and it's not even close. In just a few short minutes, each episode is able to reduce me to tears. There haven't been a single episode where I did not feel tears in the corner on my eye. It is an absolute must watch for anyone that identifies as Chinese, especially overseas Chinese that live in the West and are beginning to forget our heritage. It's a show that makes me feel proud to be Chinese while also being extremely heart wrenching. It is agonizing thinking about the humiliation our people have experienced by the hand of the western imperialist powers and Japan. Every time I think about the sacrifices our heroes have made to build China into a superpower, my heart breaks. Too many of our great comrades gave their lives to China to drag it from a dirt poor backwards country to a global powerhouse.

What lessons can we learn?

What makes the show great is that it shows the great achievements of our people without forgetting the heavy cost and sacrifices behind every one of them. It is quite a balanced take on modern Chinese history, and I really appreciate how it wasn't an arrogant propaganda piece that focuses on bragging. This is a Chinese donghua/manhua made for Chinese people, and it does little good to brag and puff out our chest. We can be confident and proud, but we must never forget the cost and the long road ahead for us. It didn't bitch and moan about lack of foreign support for China during our reconstruction, instead it highlighted the importance of self-reliance. 靠山山倒,靠人人跑, we have to rely on ourselves. Henry Kissinger, despite being an American imperialist have a great quote that we should always keep in mind "America has no permanent friends or enemies, only interests" and that not only applies to America, but to every country in the world.

The most important episodes for me were the ones about China's nuclear program, and touring the US after warming of US-China relations. For those who haven't watched the show, the episodes on China's nuclear program showed Chinese scientists literally giving up their lives, working in hazardous conditions to develop nuclear weapons because it was absolutely critical to our survival. Through the selfless sacrifice of some of our best and brightest, we developed the means to ensure the survival of our nation. Another episode is about Chinese officials touring the US and their aircraft carriers, looking on at amazement. It had a great dialogue between two rabbits where one asked if its possible to bring the infrastructure back to China, and the other replied that the US didn't work to build their infrastructure for others and that we need to work hard to build it ourselves. In the aircraft carrier, one rabbit asked "When will we have equipment this advanced?" the other replied "I don't know, but I know its better to start today than it is to start tomorrow, and if we start now, our children and their children might be able to enjoy it." They were envious of the US aircraft carrier and wanted to build one for ourselves, our very own. We were finally able to recently with the Shangdong aircraft carrier, and we have two more carriers the 003 and 004 in the works. All of this is the result of hard work and sacrifice. We didn't become this strong through bragging, but through real work.

We shouldn't bitch or moan about American policy towards China. They are imperialists with their own interests, we should remember that and rely on ourselves and build up our own strength. The US can play world police all it wants with American "allies" (aka vassals) and there isn't anything we can do about it. Complaining does no good, and in my opinion decoupling is the best thing that could've happened to us. We had a lot of bloat and greed as a result of China's economic growth, and we were too focused on making money and neglected core technologies while letting corruption grow. Everyone likes to make 小钱钱 (the term for money in the show), capitalism is very addictive and enticing, and that's why "Decoupling" is the best thing that could've happened to us since it reminded us to trim the fat and get back on the right track, and this is why Xi is the best leader we could've hoped for since he is here to put us back on the correct path. When we have our own core technologies, only then can we challenge the US for supremacy, we can't get there by making cheap consumer goods, which is why I am proud that the CPC has recognized it and focus on long term development. We should be proud of the fact that the United States has marked us as an enemy, this means despite their propaganda we pose a credible threat to US supremacy. You don't see US doing the same to India, why? Because they're not afraid of India. Speaking of India...
A warning for us is India's development. Why is India lagging China despite also being a country of 1.4 billion people, and was once heralded by the West as a "superpower in waiting"? India relied too much on the west, and focused on short term greed through relying on low-value but quick to develop "IT offshoring" and service sectors instead of industrial growth, education and infrastructure, the lifeblood of a country. As a result their industries and infrastructures are a complete mess, and poor education system makes it difficult for them to leverage their population.

As for military, their weapons and technology are all imported and focuses on replicating others' tech with poor results. We built up our strength through learning from others instead of replication, and develop upon what we learned. Look at our carrier program, we went from buying a half-build Soviet-era carrier, to developing our own ski jump takeoff carrier based on the Kuznetsov-class' design with our own improvements, and now we are finishing our own EM catapult carrier. All built domestically and carries domestic aircraft. Our new carrier the Type 003 will carry our own FC-31 5th gen fighter. It is truly our own carrier and something we can be proud of. While India's INS Vikrant relies on imported components and suffered many delays, and will probably completed after our Type 003 despite having decades of more experience with carriers, and they'll use Russian built fighters that aren't fit for carrier operations. We didn't rely on anyone else, we developed our own and now we're in a dominant position.

Instead of laughing at them and being arrogant, we should look to them as a lesson for traps to avoid. It's not like we haven't fallen for the same trap before, in the Qing Dynasty, and look at where that led us?

Without foreign support, we had a more difficult journey but the results speak for themselves. The difficult path is often more rewarding. Now the same thing is happening with semiconductors, with US sanctions we are forced to build our own semiconductor supply chain, while its much more difficult and will take longer than if we simply bought equipment and chips, the result will be worth it.
 

Bellum_Romanum

Brigadier
Registered Member
A warning for us is India's development. Why is India lagging China despite also being a country of 1.4 billion people, and was once heralded by the West as a "superpower in waiting"? India relied too much on the west, and focused on short term greed through relying on low-value but quick to develop "IT offshoring" and service sectors instead of industrial growth, education and infrastructure, the lifeblood of a country. As a result their industries and infrastructures are a complete mess, and poor education system makes it difficult for them to leverage their population.

As for military, their weapons and technology are all imported and focuses on replicating others' tech with poor results. We built up our strength through learning from others instead of replication, and develop upon what we learned. Look at our carrier program, we went from buying a half-build Soviet-era carrier, to developing our own ski jump takeoff carrier based on the Kuznetsov-class' design with our own improvements, and now we are finishing our own EM catapult carrier. All built domestically and carries domestic aircraft. Our new carrier the Type 003 will carry our own FC-31 5th gen fighter. It is truly our own carrier and something we can be proud of. While India's INS Vikrant relies on imported components and suffered many delays, and will probably completed after our Type 003 despite having decades of more experience with carriers, and they'll use Russian built fighters that aren't fit for carrier operations. We didn't rely on anyone else, we developed our own and now we're in a dominant position.

Instead of laughing at them and being arrogant, we should look to them as a lesson for traps to avoid. It's not like we haven't fallen for the same trap before, in the Qing Dynasty, and look at where that led us?

Without foreign support, we had a more difficult journey but the results speak for themselves. The difficult path is often more rewarding. Now the same thing is happening with semiconductors, with US sanctions we are forced to build our own semiconductor supply chain, while its much more difficult and will take longer than if we simply bought equipment and chips, the result will be worth it.
Rants

I'm the type of person that lean towards being overly critical since I'm on the opinion that criticism is more constructive than praise so I'm going to take this opportunity to criticize common attitudes I see among overseas Chinese diaspora as well as Chinese international students. I want to preface this by saying there is a lot of very excellent Chinese abroad and the intention of this criticism is constructive.

Many Overseas Chinese feel a lot of self-deprecation, and in my opinion its due to two primary reasons. 1) A lot of overseas Chinese emigrated during a period where China is poor and weak, and was looked down upon globally 2) Western media's racism and Sinophobia. I was the same way growing up in Canada honestly, there have been moments where I was ashamed to be Chinese since I thought it was a backwards country, and because the West was richer and stronger does that mean that our way of life and culture is "wrong"? As I grew up what I learned is while we started from a lower starting point due to imperialism and Qing corruption, the Chinese people are hardworking and in a century, we were able to become a global power, not through military force or theft like the west, but through hard work and sacrifice and that is something to be proud of.

However, while its great to be confident and proud, we must also be humble. Among a lot of younger Chinese today, there is an arrogance that I'm not a fan of. We seems to have forgotten that our achievements didn't come easily, we paid through it through blood, sweat and tears and the older generations sacrificed so we can have a better life and a country to be proud of. We should recognize that while China is a rising power and on-track to surpass the US, China is just that, a rising power. We are second to the US for now and if we want to continue to grow, we have to work hard. The fact is, the West had a few century's head start on us and built a system that affords them many advantages. The United States is still current leading and if we want to surpass them to change the unfair and anglo-centric system we have to work twice, or thrice as hard as them. This may be an extreme attitude, but I think every Chinese has the responsibility to work hard, regardless of where we live. 天下兴亡,匹夫有责. We cannot be arrogant or we'll decline just like the Americans, it has happened to us before, look at Chinese history. In fact we owe it to those who sacrificed everything. In fact, this is why I despise the "tang ping" movement and why it makes my blood boil. We are a hardworking people, our achievements didn't come to us for free, every Chinese person has a goal to contribute to the "Chinese Dream" by either contributing directly in China or being the best we can be abroad. The "tang ping" movement is a slap in the face to the previous generations and to every single Chinese past, present and future. I'm not saying younger Chinese people are lazy, that is not the case at all, Chinese people are extremely hardworking to the point of detriment and I understand that our hardworking nature have caused a lot of societal problems related to health and birth rates, but being tang ping isn't the answer.

Century of Humiliation

The last time I cried this much while watching any show is 走向共和 (Towards the Republic) which I also heavily recommend. It showed the ugliness of Qing corruption and it broke my heart. Watching Cixi build the Summer Palace while the Japanese Emperor focusing on the Navy and modernization is heart-wrenching. It is also a must watch I think, to teach us a lesson about our past and the corruption that led to the Century of Humiliation. We can blame imperialism and the West all we want, but we can't deny that we put ourselves into a position to be bullied.

I am very proud of how the CPC handled Alaska and Tianjin meetings with the US. The West bitches and moans about "wolf warrior" diplomacy, but we learned a very painful lesson that you have to stand up to imperialism. Let them bitch and moan, I rather "wolf warrior" diplomacy then be humiliated. Despite being from China's imperialist past, I feel that Li Hongzhang did the best he could given the cards he was dealt to protect Chinese interests. A part of me takes pride in the thought that Wang Yi and our other diplomats are avenging Li Hongzhang's memory.

Conclusion

Thanks everyone for reading my long and incoherent rant. I have three core takeaways

1) We should be proud of what we achieved but we should remember the sacrifices made

2) We should continue to work hard, and work harder than the Americans to surpass them and earn a better future

3) Watch the show if you haven't yet, its seriously good!
 

victoon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I am avid observer of Tibet since long time ago. Eradicating poverty in tibet is not easy and it will take generation to eliminate all the poverty in Tibet . Because of the very low base that they started. in 50's most of Tibetan live as slave or indenture farmer to the land lord and monastry. They are less than 1 million. Now they are 3.5 million people and the average life is going from 38 to 70 So progress has been made. The only way to break the cycle of poverty is thru education. But I know a lot of nomad refuse to send children to school even when it is free and they get allowances . Because they were short hand to care for their animal. The school even send teacher to this nomad camp to prod parent to send the children to school.

Compare what they have before I don't see anything wrong with the video. It poor compare to living standard in EU or US but they have big house over their head and they have enough to eat . I don't see they are emaciated or malnourish. They seem to be healthy. You cannot expect to lift middle age society to modern society in one generation. It take a lot of generation. But Tibetan middle class is growing and people living in the city has comfort and reasonable living standard. And more and more Tibetan living in grassland are moved to the new settlement

Here is a good vlog on Tibetan life in the city

Here is his channel
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

poverty alleviation in Tibet

Poverty alleviation in Qamdo

Tibetan life in urban setting
I hear what YOU say (in the same manner as 'I see you' in the movie Avatar). China has achieved so much in poverty alleviation and that is why I am a stronger supporter of CPC than ever. But do you hear ME in the context of this thread, which is how the two countries are dealing with each other, with all the emotions, power, suspicion, pride. What I am emphasizing is China did what she had to do (even if it had led to short term pain for its own people) for China's long term interests. So we expect some criticism from outside. to those who are friendly to us, we just say internal affairs and move to work on important things together as we have always done. But to those who try to use these human rights issues to force us change or as an excuse to substantively hurt us, we confront them and fight back but also find ways to steer the relationship to mutually beneficial. It's in this context I said I respect Orlin and learned from him, which triggered all this discussion. I am not saying China should give up interest. I cheer for China's remarkable performance and articulation in confrontation, thinking we are beating them at their own game.
 

victoon

Junior Member
Registered Member
I hear what YOU say (in the same manner as 'I see you' in the movie Avatar). China has achieved so much in poverty alleviation and that is why I am a stronger supporter of CPC than ever. But do you hear ME in the context of this thread, which is how the two countries are dealing with each other, with all the emotions, power, suspicion, pride. What I am emphasizing is China did what she had to do (even if it had led to short term pain for its own people) for China's long term interests. So we expect some criticism from outside. to those who are friendly to us, we just say internal affairs and move to work on important things together as we have always done. But to those who try to use these human rights issues to force us change or as an excuse to substantively hurt us, we confront them and fight back but also find ways to steer the relationship to mutually beneficial. It's in this context I said I respect Orlin and learned from him, which triggered all this discussion. I am not saying China should give up interest. I cheer for China's remarkable performance and articulation in confrontation, thinking we are beating them at their own game.
I am just really happy Xi is not like Morrison, giving up perfectly good business for some imaginary ideological war. I think some China Hawks in the west are really disappointed that China doesn't behave like an enemy and hegemon, but like a normal peace loving, hardworking, and trading country. The last thing I want is for China to be baited into some cold war or military build up. keeping the % military spending down but grow the pie has been working mighty fine for China. In the end, the country that best taken care of its people wins, and China is doing great.
 

Sleepyjam

Junior Member
Registered Member
Engagement in US China policy (which is what this thread is all about) means the US open its door to China for interaction and business, while believing that once China and the Chinese people see their ways, China will voluntarily change to be more like the US. The opposite is the Containment policy, which the US close its doors unless China changes. Obviously both camps realized China will not change the way the US wanted. So the engagement camp is shifting to focusing on cooperation on major while the containment camp more focused on on keeping China down. I think the engagement camp would drop some sanctions to trade for some cooperation but the containment camp would rather not solve climate problem than possibly losing dominance to China.

No one but Chinese high up knows what's going on in Xinjiang. We are all guessing here. my guess is China is accelerating sinicization and urbanization. I think there is likely some minor human rights infringements and short term pain for those involved but good for the longer term. the infringement could be very strongly persuade young people to work in factories far away, not truly volunteer vocational school for adults so they can learn more Chinese and general education for the illiterate, changing science edu from minority language to Chinese despite objection. calling this stuff genocide is total cognitive warfare. But I don't think there is no suffering either knowing some of the past pains along the ethnic fault line and mutual suspicion. I do think this need to be done but I sympathize those who have to go through it, knowing I and my family don't have to, and hoping that it is done is a way that will promote trust and reduce existing hatred and tension. So if someone like Orlin say 'you can't do that to your own people' in private, I'd say I share your passion of reducing suffering but we believe this short term pain will eventually lead to better lives for everyone. If someone like Blinken say what he did say in public, our diplomats gave an a very appropriate response.

I believe every country is for globalization when it suites them and bend the rules when they can.

for your other points I think we can probably leave them at 和而不同
The engagement camp has no real influence so they are irrelevant for now. On issues such as tariff and inflation they do need cooperation from China the longer they wait the worse it is for Biden.

It’s not infringement but sound policy, when the west enforce rules that some people don’t agree with they don’t call it infringement on human rights. If Orlin had really asked that question then he would be either dumb, disingenuous or brainwashed. Not exactly worthy of respect as an equal.
 
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