Crisis in the Ukraine

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delft

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Ambrose Evans-Pritchard has an article in The Daily Telegraph connecting Ukraine and the Scottish referendum with Catalonia, South-Tirol, Hungarians living outside Hungary and even a campaign to secede Bavaria from Germany:
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He contends that Russian use of armed force in Ukraine is the first time that violence was used to change borders in Europe since 1945 and so destabilizes Europe. No a word about the dismemberment of Yugoslavia followed by the break up of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia by Western military intervention. Remember that Dutch forces protected Sebrenica during three years while terrorists bases in the town murdered between 1200 and 1500 Serbs living in the neighborhood. That was mentioned in my Dutch newspaper on the day after the town was occupied by Bosnian-Serb forces.
 

SampanViking

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Thanks for the clarification. I found this list of "differences" would you say that it is valid?

******T-72 vs. T-64:

-T-72 has 6 LARGE roadwheels instead of the 6 small roadwheels on the T-64

-T-72 has the IR searchlight on the right side of the gun, the T-64 has it on the left side.

-T-72 has a larger radiator engine compartement than the T-64 and the radiator grill is farther back, compared to close to the turret on the T-64

******T-54/55 vs. T-62:

-T-54/55 has a space between the 1st and 2nd roadwheels. The T-62 has the space between the 3rd and 4th, and 4th and 5th.

-T-54/55 has fume extractor near end of barrel, T-62 has fume extractor midway down.

******T-62 vs. T-64:

-T-62 has a straight across splash guard. The T-64 has a V shaped splash guard.

-T-62 has large roadwheels with a space between 1st and 2nd road wheel. T-64 has small roadwheels that are even spaced.

-T-62 has 5 roadwheels, T-64 has 6 roadwheels.

******* T-80 vs. T-72

-T-80 has sideskirts, the T-72 may or may not.

-T-80 has 12 smoke grenade launchers, 7 on left, 5 on right

-T-80 has more distinct gaps between several roadwheels, whereas the T-72 has fairly even roadwheels.

******* T-80 vs. T-90

-T-80 has gaps between roadwheels, T-90 has almost perfectly evenly spaced roadwheels.

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Not quite the point here Dannhill. The T-72 is the Heinz of tanks, inso far as it comes in 57 varieties, many of which are not easily distinguishable from others as its mostly things inside.

As previously stated, I cannot pretend any expertise in determining what is or what is not a particular version and even on the debunked photos, it has been about proving it is something else and so not really leaving you any the wiser on the Russian BM varient.
I suspect that the differences are mainly internal (sensors etc) and not the kind of thing that stands out.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Here you go.

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And here's one from US media. I try to be fair.

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The website of my favorite radio station has an item from the Kiev "news service about the anti-terrorism operations" that Kiev wants to build fortifications along the border with Russia including 4000 shelters, 8000 positions for "military technology" - I suppose protected sites for artillery &c. - and to dig 1500 km of ditches as well to build "impenetrable obstacles".
Would this be similar to the Maginot line? And how would they reach some large parts of that border?
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
Thanks. I personally get very confused by any variants beyond the vanilla T-62.

Not quite the point here Dannhill. The T-72 is the Heinz of tanks, inso far as it comes in 57 varieties, many of which are not easily distinguishable from others as its mostly things inside.

As previously stated, I cannot pretend any expertise in determining what is or what is not a particular version and even on the debunked photos, it has been about proving it is something else and so not really leaving you any the wiser on the Russian BM varient.
I suspect that the differences are mainly internal (sensors etc) and not the kind of thing that stands out.
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Sadly it's called dual-use politics. Whoever has the most power in the world calls the shots as they see fit. The rest just go humbling along. So right now the refrain as dictated is, Putin is EVIL and the world has to agree with that. And Heaven help anyone who dares disagree with that.

Let me be blasted but I'm glad the Scots are trying for independence. I came from a country that used to be just a British colony without representation nor rights. So I know what it feels like to have masters literally.

In your example cited the writer is clearly suffering from cognitive dissonance and thus to solve his problem he just conveniently ignores much of history. Very common in people who do revisionism.

Ambrose Evans-Pritchard has an article in The Daily Telegraph connecting Ukraine and the Scottish referendum with Catalonia, South-Tirol, Hungarians living outside Hungary and even a campaign to secede Bavaria from Germany:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

He contends that Russian use of armed force in Ukraine is the first time that violence was used to change borders in Europe since 1945 and so destabilizes Europe. No a word about the dismemberment of Yugoslavia followed by the break up of Bosnia-Herzegovina and Serbia by Western military intervention. Remember that Dutch forces protected Sebrenica during three years while terrorists bases in the town murdered between 1200 and 1500 Serbs living in the neighborhood. That was mentioned in my Dutch newspaper on the day after the town was occupied by Bosnian-Serb forces.
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
Pretty long article from Saker but worth a read to understand how different factions within the New Russia sees the ceasefire agreement and who gets the most benefits from it.

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delft

Brigadier
Here you go.

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And here's one from US media. I try to be fair.

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I wonder how Kiev will pay for it. The kitty is very nearly empty. I be surprised if the cost will not be a multiple of EUR 100m and which charities could help?
The best comparable wall is the wall on the West Bank. How many kilometers is that and how much did that cost?
 
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Dannhill

Junior Member
Well Tass report answered your question. EU pay lor!! kekekekeke!!!!!

"Yatsenyuk said the government would apply to the EU for financial aid to impalement the project, adding the government had funds to implement the first stage."

I wonder how Kiev will pay for it. The kitty is very nearly empty. I be surprised if the cost will not be a multiple of EUR 100m and which charities could help?
The best comparable wall is the wall on the West Bank. How many kilometers is that and how much did that cost?
 

Dannhill

Junior Member
Strelkov held a press conference today. Both Cassad and Saker reported it.

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From Cassad I read that Kiev will launch their offensive soon, amidst the EU new sanctions and Putin will be forced into active action. Russian forces in the Far East is being put on alert now.

Looks like we will know for sure in the next few days as I've read elsewhere that Kiev will be launching their offensive as soon as they have finished their regrouping and pre-positioning.

PS - This is where the info on Russian Far East mobilising! 100,000 is surely a lot for an exercise! Looks like Putin's making a very subtle sabre rattling warning that what he did with Russian Far East he can also do in Europe.

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Military exercise in Russia’s Far East to involve over 100,000 servicemen
More than 100,000 servicemen will be engaged in an ad hoc inspection of combat readiness of the troops of Russia’s Eastern Military District, Itar-Tass news agency said. The exercises embrace four armies, the 3rd Command of the Air Force and Air Defense Troops, the command of the Pacific Fleet and the command of Strategic and Military Transport Aviation. The inspection was ordered by President Vladimir Putin early Thursday. It envisions participation of the combat planning and control agencies of the military district, separate armies and brigades, mechanized infantry and reconnaissance units, signal corps and logistics units, ships, submarines and auxiliary maritime craft, according to General Nikolay Bogdanovsky, the chief of the inspection group.
 
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Miragedriver

Brigadier
It’s time to back away from the Russian wolf

Russia's President Vladimir Putin won’t be thwarted by Nato or economic sanctions and his aim of a neutral Ukraine is acceptable

(Daily Telegraph) There is a Russian proverb: “If you can’t face the wolf, don’t go into the forest.” The West has blundered into the Ukrainian forest and enraged the Russian wolf, only to discover that we cannot face him. We should now be looking for the path out.

Western policy has been built on two false premises. The first is that we must stop a revanchist Russia. As this narrative runs: yesterday Russia took Crimea; today Eastern Ukraine; tomorrow – who knows – Estonia, Poland? This precisely mirrors the Russian nightmare of predatory Nato expansion; yesterday Poland and Estonia, today Georgia, tomorrow – who knows – parts of Russia itself? The mutual suspicions of 1914 spring worryingly to mind.

In fact, before what the Russians (with some justification) saw as a Western grab last February for control in Kiev, there was no evidence of Russian revanchism. Those who point to Georgia are wrong – it was the Georgians who started the 2008 war. Meanwhile, Ukraine is a uniquely sensitive case for Russia; the countries are bound by deep social, cultural, and historical ties. Kiev is known as the “mother of Russia cities”. And even in Ukraine the Russians want influence, not actual territory.

The “we must stand up to Putin as we did to Hitler” line is pure schoolboy politics. Putin, of whom I saw a fair amount as UK ambassador to Moscow, is not an ideologically driven fanatic, but much closer to Talleyrand – the calculating, pragmatic rebuilder of his country’s status in the world. Certainly the seizure of Crimea was illegal and destabilising. But it was a panicky response to a unique set of circumstances, not the start of an attempt to rebuild the USSR. Of course we are right to reassure those who feel most threatened – as Nato has done with its decision to create a “spearhead force”. We are right to condemn the destruction of MH17, which a report confirmed yesterday was almost certainly shot down. But the idea that sabre-rattling is necessary to convince Russia of Nato’s seriousness is ridiculous. If the Russians didn’t take the Nato security guarantee seriously, why would they be so worried about Ukraine joining?

The second false premise is that economic sanctions can stop Russia. We have deployed sanctions six times against Russia since the Second World War; they have never worked, and won’t this time. There was an air of desperation around claims at last weekend’s Nato summit in Newport that sanctions pushed Russia into the current ceasefire. In reality the US, UK and Ukraine resisted a ceasefire that left Russia in command of the field in East Ukraine. Ukraine only moved to accept the ceasefire because it suddenly started losing the war.

Sanctions are a potemkin policy, deployed in the absence of any effective alternative. They have probably done some economic damage, but their sole political effect has been to rally the Russian people behind their president, and reinforce Putin’s conviction that this is a struggle he cannot afford to lose, whatever the cost. Even the Russian opposition doesn’t support them.

It has become clear in the past two weeks that the Russians are ready to go to the brink to achieve their political objectives in Ukraine. Few believe we should go to the brink to stop them. So all we can do is prolong the agony and further immiserate Ukraine. Happily, the gap between the fiery rhetoric of the Newport summit and the moderation of its actual decisions implicitly acknowledged this. The spearhead force will, despite Polish demands, not be sat on Russia’s frontiers. There will also be Nato help for Ukraine’s armed forces, but no serious weaponry (as they would still lose).

Meanwhile, the summit did not refer at all to the most neuralgic point for Russia: Nato membership for Ukraine. And Nato members have rather belied their declared fears of a revanchist Russia by their reluctance to spend more on defence. When I went to such summits a commitment, as in the Nato communiqué, to “aim to” raise spending amounted to a decision to do nothing.

And as many commentators have noted, Russia’s objectives – a neutral Ukraine, and constitutional safeguards for the population in the East – are not impossible to meet. We do deals with China, with Iran, with North Korea. Uncomfortable as it may be, the time has come to do a deal with Putin. Part of this should be easy; Ukraine is in any case going to be in no condition to join Nato for the foreseeable future. Negotiating an acceptable level of autonomy for East Ukraine will be much harder. The Russians are in possession, and will not let go until their concerns are met.

Meanwhile Ukraine’s President Poroshenko has to deal with a nationalist Right whom every concession will enrage. Here, finally, sanctions could be of some use, with the offer to lift them helping to lubricate the way towards an agreement.

The whole affair raises serious questions about the competence of Western policymaking towards Russia. The one route out of this mess has been visible for months. But let us not recriminate. There are still big prizes to play for. A democratic, prosperous, Western-leaning (but not allied) Ukraine is bound to become an important exemplar for the Russians next door. And the reopening of Western economic ties with Russia is crucial to the process of pulling that country, however slowly and erratically, towards European normality, too.


I will now get back to bottling my Malbec
 
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