Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

vesicles

Colonel
2 Alaska Health Workers Got Emergency Treatment After Receiving Pfizer’s Vaccine
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Two in U.K. Suffer Allergic Reaction to Pfizer’s Covid-19 Vaccine
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Is it just me or did they seriously rush this vaccine without testing on those with allergies? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes, the vaccines have been rushed, but showing allergic reactions is normal. It happens with the safest vaccines. Even in the most thorough clinical trials, you cannot possibly cover every single type of human body and every conceivable reactions to your vaccine. That’s just not possible. So when you release it to the general public, you will start to see all kinds of weird responses. We have people having allergic reactions to all kinds of perfectly normal and even healthy things, like seafood, milk, and nuts. So it’s not surprising.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Yes, the vaccines have been rushed, but showing allergic reactions is normal. It happens with the safest vaccines. Even in the most thorough clinical trials, you cannot possibly cover every single type of human body and every conceivable reactions to your vaccine. That’s just not possible. So when you release it to the general public, you will start to see all kinds of weird responses. We have people having allergic reactions to all kinds of perfectly normal and even healthy things, like seafood, milk, and nuts. So it’s not surprising.

No, the issue is not really with the allergies themselves, it’s the fact that people with allergies were specifically excluded from the trials at the screening phase.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details, and one of the key details I most want to see is what other groups they might have screened out, and if that is reasonable or a blatant attempt to inflate their efficacy numbers.
 

In4ser

Junior Member
What's npr reputation like? I'm not from the states
NPR is a listener funded news organization but it has been receiving corporate advertisement money recently. Despite that, it is my primary source for general news because I can listen to it while I'm working, exercising, or gaming but there's definitely a strong liberal bias. I do find PRI's The World at times be more accurate about China than the BBC. However, it does seem to have a bias about India because it's been completely quiet about Indian farmer protests, unlike the BBC. They also featured two podcasts that I liked which were Things that Go Boom or On China's New Silk Road which had a more in-depth and balanced portrayal of China. Marketplace is also pretty good for economic news and it was actually from there where I heard a segment awhile back that talked about the economic causes of June 4, 1989 protests (i.e. Deng's free market reforms and the loss of the iron bowl guarantees) instead of the atypical "Democracy" explanation.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
No, the issue is not really with the allergies themselves, it’s the fact that people with allergies were specifically excluded from the trials at the screening phase.

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details, and one of the key details I most want to see is what other groups they might have screened out, and if that is reasonable or a blatant attempt to inflate their efficacy numbers.

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I'm not so sure about the "fact" that people with allergies have been intentionally excluded. I am attaching the peer-reviewed Ptfizer's clinical trial data, which was published in the New England Journal of Medicine about a week ago. This is one of the most respected medical journals in the world.

As you can see, they tested a total of 43,548 participants and went through complete randomization. They even included many subjects (21%) with serious co-existing conditions, including HIV and hepatitis B/C infections. They didn't mention anything about people with common allergies. However, since about 30% of the general public has some degrees of allergies and they didn't specifically separate out these people, a significant portion of their subjects must have allergies. In their Figure 1, they listed that they screened an initial 44,820 subjects and eliminated 1272 (2% of their initial total) in the end for various reasons. As I mentioned above, ~30% of the general public has allergies. So these 1272 subjects cannot be those with allergies. So we have no evidence that they intentionally excluded allergies.

As you can see from their Figure 2, a significant portion of their test subjects suffered some degree of adverse effects, including some severe ones. They listed some of the common adverse reactions in the legend of Figure 2. Many of these adverse reactions are similar to allergic reactions. Please keep in mind that these side effects are common among all vaccines. So do expect to experience some of these when you get the shot too. However, if you compare the statistics of those actually getting the vaccine with those getting the placebo, you can see that the difference is not that big. Meaning that even people getting a placebo shot experienced significant adverse effects, even including some severe one (although not as much as those getting the actual vaccine). This suggests the vaccine itself is slightly more "dangerous" than the placebo. And no matter what you inject into them, some of them will react badly.

At the end of their report, they mention that they have separate studies focusing on younger kids < 16 and pregnant women. These studies are ongoing.

Again serious adverse effects with vaccines are expected. This is the same with every kind of vaccines, no matter which country designs and develops them. When the reports of Chinese vaccines come out, we will see the same trend. Nothing magical about Chinese or Western vaccines. They are the same. They have been rushed the same way. No need to discriminate them because of their origin. The Western media are criticizing the Chinese vaccines for the same reasons (lack of thorough testing, etc), and the Chinese are criticizing the western vaccines for the exact same thing. But if you look at these vaccines side-by-side, they are doing the exact same things, efficacy and side effects. If you want to respect science, let science take care of things.
 
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vesicles

Colonel
I would like to talk a little more about the Pfizer clinical trial data. For instance, their Figure 2 describes that less than 2% vaccine-receiving subjects experienced severe "systemic events" after their second shot. They mean to say that about 2% out of their 18,556 subjects getting the actual vaccine experienced serious side effects. If everyone in the entire Houston (with a population of ~4 million) gets inoculated, we will have 80,000 people reporting severe side effects. Our hospitals will be flooded with calls complaining bad things happening to them. Is that normal? Yes. Perfectly normal.
 

vesicles

Colonel
Also, when they say their vaccine has an efficacy of 95%, they are not saying 95% of the people getting the vaccine will be protected. They are saying that vaccination can prevent 95% of infections that would have occurred in an unvaccinated population. For details, please see the formulas explained on the CDC website.

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Shaolian

Junior Member
Registered Member
As far as I know, none of those serious side effects from the Pfizer vaccine trials were reported by the news, but then again, that New England Journal report were only published last week, well after the vaccine were "rolled out" for the high risk and frontliner groups.

That's why people are perplexed by the high numbers of adverse effects, when before this, we were under the impression made by the news and indeed by Pfizer themselves, that the vaccine is completely safe.
 

Intrepid

Major
In USA and UK, the vaccines are approved with an emergency approval. If a pilot is vaccinated with such a vaccine, he will lose his medical. The approval of the EU is not an emergency approval, but takes place regularly.
 

vesicles

Colonel
As far as I know, none of those serious side effects from the Pfizer vaccine trials were reported by the news, but then again, that New England Journal report were only published last week, well after the vaccine were "rolled out" for the high risk and frontliner groups.

That's why people are perplexed by the high numbers of adverse effects, when before this, we were under the impression made by the news and indeed by Pfizer themselves, that the vaccine is completely safe.

Yes, every government is focused on getting as many people vaccinated as possible. To get this virus under control, you will need at least 60% of the population vaccinated. That's why they are sugar-coating their vaccines. Everyone is doing it. Have you heard the Chinese government/Chinese companies warning their people how dangerous their vaccines are? Is it possible that Chinese vaccines are perfectly safe? NO! Absolutely not! I would not believe it for one second if someone comes out and say their vaccine is perfect and has no serious side effects. It's physically impossible. Even placebos induce bad effects. but everyone is bragging about how great their vaccines are. Aren't they?

It seems that I'm defending the Pfizer vaccine now... I am defending science. Development of any biological/medical agent is messy in general because of lack of thorough understanding of our biological world. If you put any reagent under the microscope, you will find so many weird and messy things. And it will seem that every company is sugar-coating their babies. Take for example, aspirin, the most widely used over-the-counter drug in the history of the world. Can you imagine that if you give aspirin to a baby, there is a chance that your baby will develop Reye's syndrome, where the baby's liver and brain will swell. Symptoms include continuous vomiting, seizures or convulsions, loss of consciousness, and maybe death. A simple aspirin...

Be careful what you wish for. When many countries in the world begin to use the Chinese vaccines, you will begin to hear "horrible" stories of bad things happening to those getting the Chinese vaccines. They WILL happen! Believe me! These are not magical elixirs. They have been designed and manufactured by human and they will have serious adverse effects. And when hundreds of millions or billions of people take it, many of them (even when it's a minuscule percentage) will respond badly. And unfortunately, some of them will even die. This is statistics. You have no way around it. And Western media WILL blow them up and exaggerate every one of them. "Look! the horrible Chinese vaccines!" You will be busy defending all of them? How? Why not take this opportunity and explain to everyone that these side effects are common and a normal part of any vaccine? Be it Pfizer or any Chinese vaccines. It's normal. then when the Chinese vaccines begin to show bad effects, you can simply say "as I have told you before, this is normal to any vaccine."
 
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