Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

supercat

Major
The Sinopharm vaccine was approved for general use in Bahrain, despite its temporary suspension in Peru. It had been approved for emergency use earlier in Bahrain.
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It seems neurological problems is possibly a relative common adverse effect of virus vaccines. For example, 4 recipients of the Pfizer vaccine developed Bell’s Palsy (partial facial paralysis).
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lgnxz

Junior Member
Registered Member
What's stopping sinovac and sinopharm from announcing the efficacy rate from the phase 3 trials already? I'm quite sure that they also do those tests in china as well so just announce the domestic result at least, why do we need to cling all the result from a 2nd/3rd party to determine the effectiveness of the vaccine? All the other vaccine companies claim their own rates, and no one has a problem with it. The early pfizer claim is to has an efficacy of 90%, then after russian gamelaya announced theirs to be 92%, then moderna's 94%, they somehow change their result from 90 to 95% to outdo both of them. Imagine that, and ofc none of their media will call this one to be suspicious either. All these results realistically cannot be reverified either since it's all just mere inks in papers anyway; you have no choice but believe in the 'source: dude trust me' logic.

Based on that premise, in my opinion it's outright risky or even stupid to just let these foreign countries, pretty sure all of them are behind china in term of its science and technology, to decide whatever number for the overall result of the phase 3. Each of them have their own interests, and some like brazil has a government that is openly hostile to china. I can see how anyone can nudge the number to get a better price from sinopharm or sinovac, or even tarnish the product's reputation completely for geopolitical points. In any case, making separate report based on the result of the domestic trial should be done asap since it's very necessary to counter those possibilities.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
What's stopping sinovac and sinopharm from announcing the efficacy rate from the phase 3 trials already? I'm quite sure that they also do those tests in china as well so just announce the domestic result at least, why do we need to cling all the result from a 2nd/3rd party to determine the effectiveness of the vaccine? All the other vaccine companies claim their own rates, and no one has a problem with it. The early pfizer claim is to has an efficacy of 90%, then after russian gamelaya announced theirs to be 92%, then moderna's 94%, they somehow change their result from 90 to 95% to outdo both of them. Imagine that, and ofc none of their media will call this one to be suspicious either. All these results realistically cannot be reverified either since it's all just mere inks in papers anyway; you have no choice but believe in the 'source: dude trust me' logic.

Based on that premise, in my opinion it's outright risky or even stupid to just let these foreign countries, pretty sure all of them are behind china in term of its science and technology, to decide whatever number for the overall result of the phase 3. Each of them have their own interests, and some like brazil has a government that is openly hostile to china. I can see how anyone can nudge the number to get a better price from sinopharm or sinovac, or even tarnish the product's reputation completely for geopolitical points. In any case, making separate report based on the result of the domestic trial should be done asap since it's very necessary to counter those possibilities.

Because you can only determine efficacy rates by looking at how many people who got the vaccine developed COVID compared to the control group that got the placebo.

Chinese domestic tests are good for testing for side effects, but pretty much useless for efficacy since there they have effectively eradicated Covid in China, so there is almost no chance of anyone taking part in the trials in China being exposed to COVID naturally in China.
 

Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
Because you can only determine efficacy rates by looking at how many people who got the vaccine developed COVID compared to the control group that got the placebo.

Chinese domestic tests are good for testing for side effects, but pretty much useless for efficacy since there they have effectively eradicated Covid in China, so there is almost no chance of anyone taking part in the trials in China being exposed to COVID naturally in China.
How do they make sure that those in the vaccine trial got exposed to the virus? Just allow them to roam around without masks in their daily lives? If they are not exposed, how do they know if the vaccine is useful.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
How do they make sure that those in the vaccine trial got exposed to the virus? Just allow them to roam around without masks in their daily lives? If they are not exposed, how do they know if the vaccine is useful.

You cannot ‘make sure’ trial participants are exposed to the virus unless you deliberately expose them, as some western politicians and medical ‘experts’ have suggested.

It is because most civilised people tend not to resort of such facist methods that phase 3 trials typically take such a long time and involve such a huge number of participants in order to be successful.

Basically, as the time function increase, so does the chances of people being exposed to the virus.

Now, because you cannot strap detectors to participants to test if they have been exposed, all you can do is wait for enough people to get infected naturally across both the test and control groups to draw statistically significant analysis.

Therein lies my primary reservation with the western mad dash to report results, the number of confirmed cases are so low (across both groups) that any outliers and anomalies are going to disproportionately skew the results.

It is also worth noting that statistically speaking, the higher the sample size, the better approximation it is of the actual effective rate of the vaccine. In addition, the trial runners are not going in blind, and would have some idea of the ballpark efficacy rate of their vaccines from earlier phase 1 and 2 trials.

So, let’s just for the sake of argument say you are the head of Pfizer, you got efficacy rates of 70-80% from phase 1 and 2 trials, you start your phase 3 trial, and after a couple months got preliminary results showing efficacy rates of 99%, then a few weeks later, that drops to 95%, you also got an effective get-out-of-jail-free card from the US government safeguarding against lawsuits wrt side effects from the vaccine. Would you not be tempted to ‘cash out’ with your 95% now rather than wait for it to drop further?

Also, I think it is highly significant that Pfizer’s CEO and EVP offloaded all their shares in the company on the day the vaccine results were announced and share price spiked. That’s as blatant an example of insider trading as you can get, and it looks like they are basically banking on the importance of the vaccine to protect them against government anti-trust investigations. But still, it is a highly dangerous move to make, and one really has to wonder what they know that isn’t public to make them to take such a high risk strategy to cash out. Because there would not a need to take such a risk, and indeed every incentive to hold onto their stocks, because if their vaccine is as good as initial results are claiming, Pfizer’s share prices will only go up and up.

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AssassinsMace

Lieutenant General
There was that article for some reason that emphasized that 20% of Brazilians won't be taking the Chinese vaccine. Is that worse than only 62% of Americans that say they will get vaccinated in all? 38% of Americans don't even trust their own vaccine. 80% of Brazilians trust a Chinese vaccine. They aren't going to frame it like that.
 

KYli

Brigadier
There was that article for some reason that emphasized that 20% of Brazilians won't be taking the Chinese vaccine. Is that worse than only 62% of Americans that say they will get vaccinated in all? 38% of Americans don't even trust their own vaccine. 80% of Brazilians trust a Chinese vaccine. They aren't going to frame it like that.

Latest polls indicate that 47% Brazilians won't take the Chinese vaccine, and 22% Brazilians won't take any vaccine. A few months back, most Brazilians don't have a problem taking any vaccine including Chinese vaccine but their president decided to wage a war on Chinese vaccine and the public opinion and sentiment have changed ever since.
 

j17wang

Senior Member
Registered Member
Number of cases in the Phase III Brazil trials have reached 170, above the number required for final analysis of 151. Dimas Covas, director of Butantan is now sending final documentation to both the Brazilian and Chinese regulators for full approval on the same day, December 23.

Basically Sao Paolo state no longer trusts Bolsonaro, will probably get China to force through the approval with the complete set of data.

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KYli

Brigadier
Number of cases in the Phase III Brazil trials have reached 170, above the number required for final analysis of 151. Dimas Covas, director of Butantan is now sending final documentation to both the Brazilian and Chinese regulators for full approval on the same day, December 23.

Basically Sao Paolo state no longer trusts Bolsonaro, will probably get China to force through the approval with the complete set of data.

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As I mentioned before, this is all due to politics. Brazil could release the interim data a few weeks ago but decided against it. Not sure if this means that they won't release the data on December 15 as expected.
 
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