Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
The big problem is this, there is no clear plan out.

The central government keeps patting themselves on the back for Covid-Zero, great, but what's next? What is the gameplan here? Covid-Zero forever? You can't, not economically, not for mental health, not for any number of reasons.
Like he said: Better drugs/medication, hope that covid will become less deadly, waiting for the elderly to get more vaccinated, maybe also prepare more beds or places for patients when the zero-covid strategy is dropped.

All in all, probably still 1-3 years away.
This is the main thing upsetting people (IMO). If the elderly vaccination rate is the concern, throw some incentives. I think there was a post like they are willing to give 500 RMB in some places. Do it! What are the targets? The government is usually great at setting goals and meeting them, but there is no clarity right now. The question is not necessarily having direct say in governance, if there is a common goal, the question is "how we can make things happen?" People have legitimate questions about why the mRNA vaccines have not been approved yet, just be honest about it. Is it because they don't like mixing vaccines (a perfectly valid reason since they didn't even allow it until last month or something)? Instead there is silence.
This is very valid, the chinese government really just seems to not like and go out and announce things when things are like 'halfway' there. Like they want completed projects/timelines etc.
It probably does mean whenever they announce when they be dropping zero-covid, there should also be a LOT of talk about reason, strategy to deal with dropping zero-covid etc.
China is a victim of their own success right now... International students want to get back to study. Family overseas want to go back to visit (or have their relatives pay them a visit), both these groups are probably like "things aren't so bad anymore, China can handle it".
What, you want China now to have emulated western countries?
 

supersnoop

Major
Registered Member
What, you want China now to have emulated western countries?

Just to clarify this.

What I mean is that many Overseas relatives are probably telling their family back home that things are not so bad anymore wherever they are. So if the Chinese government was able to maintain such a strong response, they would trust them to be able to manage reopening in a beneficial manner. I hear this a lot anecdotally.
 

Michaelsinodef

Senior Member
Registered Member
Just to clarify this.

What I mean is that many Overseas relatives are probably telling their family back home that things are not so bad anymore wherever they are. So if the Chinese government was able to maintain such a strong response, they would trust them to be able to manage reopening in a beneficial manner. I hear this a lot anecdotally.
My parents is one of those cases lol.

At the end though, mostly anecdotal and really depends on country and also place in said country. As an example there is in fact various reports about how say the UK health system is under immense pressure due to Covid, and if China stopped zero-covid, the pressure is only gonna be even more immense and we would see videos of people crying about how the hospital are rejecting them of treatment due to no available space, as well as western media on about how XXX amount of people have died in China.

Basically, damned if you do and damned if you don't.
So might as well go with damned if you don't, and continue zero-covid (not to mention things seems to become better now in Shanghai?). After Shanghai and Jilin is under control and over, it should raise the alarm basically everywhere in China.
 

KYli

Brigadier
The big problem is this, there is no clear plan out.
It isn't that the central government doesn't want to formalize a plan for exit. It is just that whenever the central government was thinking about it, another variants emerge. In late 2020, some experts were already talking about relaxing the border policy. The central government put a halt to such suggestion and want to wait. Then we got Alpha and a few months later Delta. China was saved by being cautious.
The central government keeps patting themselves on the back for Covid-Zero, great, but what's next? What is the gameplan here? Covid-Zero forever?
After Delta, the central government was in a wait and see mode. That is waiting for other countries to reopen and see the results. We have many reopening that ended up pretty badly. Omicron is also another disaster for many countries even as it is relative mild compare with Alpha and Delta but way too contagious.

Countries such as New Zealand, Australia, Singapore and South Korea have fared better than other countries when reopen with relative high vaccination rate and boosted. However, Hong Kong is a disaster that has reminded China its shortcomings of not having a high vaccination rate for elderly. Even South Korea, its hospitals were overwhelmed and run out of caskets.

The conclusion is China needed to vaccinate and boosted its elderly first before thinking of reopening.

You can't, not economically, not for mental health, not for any number of reasons.
Most Chinese have enjoyed much better freedom in the last two years from zero covid strategy than other countries. Most were able to travel freely and even to other provinces for vacation. I think there are a lot of crybabies that don't want to make any sacrifice and overemphasize the mental health angle. Economically, China has done well for the last two years. Omicron has made it much more costly to contain. However, the cost is still acceptable at the moment. In the long run, if China couldn't find a better to stamp out the virus, then it would be problematic. But a soft lock down like Shenzhen and Xian and Suzhou aren't that costly.

This is the main thing upsetting people (IMO). If the elderly vaccination rate is the concern, throw some incentives. I think there was a post like they are willing to give 500 RMB in some places. Do it! What are the targets? The government is usually great at setting goals and meeting them, but there is no clarity right now.
Every local governments have been overdrive to vaccinate elderly after what happened in HK. I already posted a few posts for this topic. Incentives probably wouldn't be enough. Fears would also be needed. If Shanghai deaths tolls rise, then expected more elderly got vaccinated. For the last two months, many places have vaccinated over 20% more of their elderly population which is a good progress.

The question is not necessarily having direct say in governance, if there is a common goal, the question is "how we can make things happen?"
The Western countries all failed to force their population to vaccinate. China is already doing much better than most. Unless, you wanted China to pass a law to force elderly to vaccinate.

People have legitimate questions about why the mRNA vaccines have not been approved yet, just be honest about it. Is it because they don't like mixing vaccines (a perfectly valid reason since they didn't even allow it until last month or something)? Instead there is silence.
First, China is always cautious about new medicine and vaccines. Second, the West is already considered to ban seeds export to Russia. If Russia can't find other sources, they would not be able to farm next year. Remember how Indians were begging other countries including China for raw materials to produce their vaccines.

Just look even domestic vaccines that rely upon other countries for raw materials were not approved yet. Besides, three doses of Sinovac and Sinopharm performed the same as two doses or three doses of mRNA vaccines which have been proven in HK study. So no need to import mRNA vaccines at the moment.

China is a victim of their own success right now... International students want to get back to study. Family overseas want to go back to visit (or have their relatives pay them a visit), both these groups are probably like "things aren't so bad anymore, China can handle it".
That isn't China primary concern. China's primary concern is the well being of its domestic citizens like any other countries.

Just to clarify this.

What I mean is that many Overseas relatives are probably telling their family back home that things are not so bad anymore wherever they are. So if the Chinese government was able to maintain such a strong response, they would trust them to be able to manage reopening in a beneficial manner. I hear this a lot anecdotally.
China doesn't have enough ICU beds or doctors. What happened in HK would be replicated in China in a 200 times scale especially for the rural areas. Higher vaccination rate would alleviate such issue but probably would still get its hospitals overwhelmed and turned away patients like Japan and South Korea did. I would bet that the West would have a field day when it happened.
 
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vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
People have legitimate questions about why the mRNA vaccines have not been approved yet, just be honest about it. Is it because they don't like mixing vaccines (a perfectly valid reason since they didn't even allow it until last month or something)? Instead there is silence.
what’s with the almost religious belief with mRNA vaccine? The quickest vaccine development in history before COVID was the MMR vaccine and it took 4 years. It was an inactivated vaccin.
Let the West test the experimental tech on their populations for 10 years at least before the Chinese government allows it on her population
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
The central government keeps patting themselves on the back for Covid-Zero, great, but what's next? What is the gameplan here? Covid-Zero forever? You can't, not economically, not for mental health, not for any number of reasons.

The plan is to continue to grow much faster than the US. The Zero Covid strategy is probably a major reason for the Middle Kingdom's vastly superior economic performance. A few short weeks of lockdown and testing -- followed by nearly total freedom afterwards -- cannot have much impact on mental health. China's economic performance is likely proof of this: low morale is unlikely to make people work hard.
 

Han Patriot

Junior Member
Registered Member
The big problem is this, there is no clear plan out.

The central government keeps patting themselves on the back for Covid-Zero, great, but what's next? What is the gameplan here? Covid-Zero forever? You can't, not economically, not for mental health, not for any number of reasons.

This is the main thing upsetting people (IMO). If the elderly vaccination rate is the concern, throw some incentives. I think there was a post like they are willing to give 500 RMB in some places. Do it! What are the targets? The government is usually great at setting goals and meeting them, but there is no clarity right now. The question is not necessarily having direct say in governance, if there is a common goal, the question is "how we can make things happen?" People have legitimate questions about why the mRNA vaccines have not been approved yet, just be honest about it. Is it because they don't like mixing vaccines (a perfectly valid reason since they didn't even allow it until last month or something)? Instead there is silence.

China is a victim of their own success right now... International students want to get back to study. Family overseas want to go back to visit (or have their relatives pay them a visit), both these groups are probably like "things aren't so bad anymore, China can handle it".
I have seen one of my Shanghai colleagues who didn't even have a single dose of vaccine. They think they are smart by being cautious. Because we were too successful early on, it gave these bozos a sense of security, a 3 dose sinopharm vaccine is more than enough to counter this, that's why you had so many asymptomatic cases. Even me, I hesitated to get the 3rd dose. It is only flu like if you get adequate vaccination.
 

Han Patriot

Junior Member
Registered Member
The plan is to continue to grow much faster than the US. The Zero Covid strategy is probably a major reason for the Middle Kingdom's vastly superior economic performance. A few short weeks of lockdown and testing -- followed by nearly total freedom afterwards -- cannot have much impact on mental health. China's economic performance is likely proof of this: low morale is unlikely to make people work hard.
Jilin was zero covid in 30 days, Shanghai will most probably achieve that too, but this was really unnecessary had the Shanghai government taken this seriously. They were still using the first variant strategy.
 

Han Patriot

Junior Member
Registered Member
what’s with the almost religious belief with mRNA vaccine? The quickest vaccine development in history before COVID was the MMR vaccine and it took 4 years. It was an inactivated vaccin.
Let the West test the experimental tech on their populations for 10 years at least before the Chinese government allows it on her population
My relative in SEA got cancer a month after the second dose of Pfizer. There are risks for something so new.
 
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