Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

[solarz]

No shame. Shanghai was announcing that it would not lock down, then within 48 hours Shanghai announced that it would lock down and do mass testing. The central government sent its vice premier with all provinces mobilized. If Shanghai has no shame, then Wuhan should haven't shame either. Xian should be declared outstanding. Shanghai media was attacking Xian for its failure.

IIRC, Xi'an was criticised not for failing to contain the virus, but for causing undue hardship in the process.

So you mean Zhong Nanshan who came out and said that living with covid is wrong at the same time didn't mean anything.

Debates don't mean policy you know. I'm sure there's a lively debate going on in the Chinese medical circles, but the policy of dynamic zero is still being followed.

It meant Shanghai had failed. Shanghai as the China financial center with the most medical resources failed.

Nonsense. Again, Shanghai is directly under central government control. It does what the central government allows it to do.

I just translated what the Shanghai government official said. She said no country would treat a flu with such measures and it is political disease.

That's just one opinion among many others.

It is the same strain. Just look at the China CDC data before Shanghai came along

You can't compare initial figures with current figures, the dynamics of transmission means you'll get different ratios at different stages of the wave.

Instead of looking for conspiracy theories, look at the death and hospitalization rate. You might quibble over what exactly constitutes asymptomatic, but death and hospitalization is what actually matters.

 

[texx1]

I don't like these kinds of conspiracy theories. Shanghai may have higher numbers than we've been used to seeing, but thanks to comprehensive testing and contact tracing, it's still entirely manageable. The fact that the central government is stepping in already means they've been keeping an eye on the situation all this time.

Since central government has stepped in and PLA have been deployed, it means SH party chief Li Qiang is potentially compromised. His failure at managing this covid outbreak could damage his reputation and impede his promotion to the standing committee. Even if he got promoted after this, his loss of prestige might make him harder to command respect when governing. Remember Hubei and Wuhan party chiefs were replaced due to their disastrous performance two years ago.

 

[Phead128]

I think whenever case (infection) numbers are reported, the gov't should also report the deaths and hospitalized numbers. The Deaths number matters much more than infection, because vaccines can't prevent infection, but it can prevent deaths/hospitalization.

 

[KYli]

IIRC, Xi'an was criticised not for failing to contain the virus, but for causing undue hardship in the process.

Shanghai had caused even more hardship than Xian. People in Shanghai were lock down on and off for over a month with the so called precision method. People are complaining no food in Shanghai and no helps from the Shanghai government. Why no media said anything about Shanghai.

Debates don't mean policy you know. I'm sure there's a lively debate going on in the Chinese medical circles, but the policy of dynamic zero is still being followed.

And Shanghai failed badly to implement such policy.

Nonsense. Again, Shanghai is directly under central government control. It does what the central government allows it to do.

People in Shanghai always say this. It is the central government fault. Shanghai can't do no wrong.

That's just one opinion among many others.

Maybe so, but Shanghai still failed and failed badly.

You can't compare initial figures with current figures, the dynamics of transmission means you'll get different ratios at different stages of the wave.

Instead of looking for conspiracy theories, look at the death and hospitalization rate. You might quibble over what exactly constitutes asymptomatic, but death and hospitalization is what actually matters.

I believe in science. If both South Korea and Hong Kong didn't have such low asymptomatic cases, then why should Shanghai stand out. Same thing with hospitalization and death, when the cases number are low then you can use extra resources to keep death low but there wouldn't be much of difference between Shanghai, Hong Kong and South Korea when cases are in high number.

 

[SanWenYu]

Do you see which country is so defensive about the flu now?

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领导回答，对的。要被逼疯了，她们专业机构也要被逼疯了，专业人员说的话根本就没人听。现在全部把这个病变成了政z性的一个疾病。花了这么多的人力物力财力……就在做一个防L感的，你看到现在哪个国家防流感这么防吗？

领导还说，那这一轮的话，不是应该抓紧时间提高接种率嘛。我提案写过好几次了，知道不？所以你不要认为，我们医护人员或者专业人员都是饭桶，我们都知道重点是什么？但是没人听。

First of all, I would not take 多维 seriously.

Even if this voice recording existed, and someone who claimed to be a "leader" in a branch of a public service vented her anger towards the zero-tolerance policy, you equal this to that the Shanghai local authorities are giving up? Oh come on, since when the opinion of a public service staff at such bottom level can represent Shanghai which, as you said, has political influence more than HK and Shenzhen combined?

If you would not take defeatism words from a frustrated and exhansted corporal as the declaration of surrender of his whoe brigade, then you should not use words from this lady as the evidence that the Shanghai local authorities want to live with covid.

We have seen pushbacks from the bottom level out of frustration and fatigue, not only in Shanghai but also in other places. The person in question could have had many reasons for bursting out those words.

 

[KYli]

First of all, I would not take 多维 seriously.

Even if this voice recording existed, and someone who claimed to be a "leader" in a branch of a public service vented her anger towards the zero-tolerance policy, you equal this to that the Shanghai local authorities are giving up? Oh come on, since when the opinion of a public service staff at such bottom level can represent Shanghai which, as you said, has political influence more than HK and Shenzhen combined?

If you would not take defeatism words from a frustrated and exhansted corporal as the declaration of surrender of his whoe brigade, then you should not use words from this lady as the evidence that the Shanghai local authorities want to live with covid.

We have seen pushbacks from the bottom level out of frustration and fatigue, not only in Shanghai but also in other places. The person in question could have had many reasons for bursting out those words.

The video tape was coming out from China not 多维. 多维 just picked it up.

I don't but actions speak louder than words.

1. Shanghai has refused to designate itself as a high risk area. This action caused the virus to spread from Shanghai to 21 provinces. This is a fact.

2. Shanghai has refused lock down or mass testing. It is only until just before a vice Premier was sent from the central government that Shanghai agreed to lock down and mass testing. This is a fact.

3. Shanghai has initially refused helps from nearby provinces. This is a fact.

4. Shanghai claimed its precison method was working even though the daily cases number keep increasing for over 2 weeks. That is a fact.

 

[SanWenYu]

As I mentioned in my earlier reply. The guidance is about treatment, not reporting. Hence, the name is treatment guideline. (新型冠状病毒肺炎诊疗方案)

Here is the 9th, newest version of the Covid treatment guideline you like to talk so much about. It contains no mention of how one reports/classifies asymptomatic covid cases.

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You can read it yourself.

I explained what my relative told me about the reason for Shanghai to have a strange asy/sy ratio. And I have already listed my reasons for believing him as well. You are certainly free to disagree.

Guess you did not read the guidance if you think it is about treatment but not reporting. Here is the section on reporting:

十、病例的发现与报告
各级各类医疗机构发现符合病例定义的疑似病例或新
型冠状病毒抗原检测结果为阳性者，应立即采集标本进行核
酸检测或闭环转运至有条件的上级医疗机构进行核酸检测，
期间单人单间隔离。核酸检测结果为阳性者，进行集中隔离
管理或送至定点医院治疗，并按照规定进行网络直报。
连续两次新型冠状病毒核酸检测阴性（采样时间至少间
隔 24 小时），可排除疑似病例诊断。

If you are saying that Shanghai is classifying the patients following the guidance but cooking the numbers when they publish and report, it is your speculation unless you have evidence.

Mind you that I read the sections on classifying patients in 7th and 8th editions months ago when I was posting on this thread. I read the same sections in the 9th edition again when it was released right after the Winter Olympics. I even commented that, because mild cases no longer need to be hospitalized, it's a sign that China is preparing for Omicron.

 

[SanWenYu]

The video tape was coming out from China not 多维. 多维 just picked it up.

I question the narrative by 多维. As I already said, even if the recording existed, it does not support your allege that the Shanghai local authorities are giving up or trying to lax.

I don't but actions speak louder than words.

1. Shanghai has refused to designate itself as a high risk area. This action caused the virus to spread from Shanghai to 21 provinces. This is a fact.

2. Shanghai has refused lock down or mass testing. It is only until just before a vice Premier was sent from the central government that Shanghai agreed to lock down and mass testing. This is a fact.

3. Shanghai has initially refused helps from nearby provinces. This is a fact.

4. Shanghai claimed its precison method was working even though the daily cases number keep increasing for over 2 weeks. That is a fact.

All these facts do not support your claim that Zhang and the Shanghai local authorities are most supportive (of living with the virus).

I never questioned any of these facts. I have been waiting for the evidence. I have seen none.

 

[texx1]

Guess you did not read the guidance if you think it is about treatment but not reporting. Here is the section on reporting:



If you are saying that Shanghai is classifying the patients following the guidance but cooking the numbers when they publish and report, it is your speculation unless you have evidence.

Mind you that I read the sections on classifying patients in 7th and 8th editions months ago when I was posting on this thread. I read the same sections in the 9th edition again when it was released right after the Winter Olympics. I even commented that, because mild cases no longer need to be hospitalized, it's a sign that China is preparing for Omicron.

I said reporting of asymptomatic case in the guideline.

十、病例的发现与报告
各级各类医疗机构发现符合病例定义的疑似病例或新
型冠状病毒抗原检测结果为阳性者，应立即采集标本进行核
酸检测或闭环转运至有条件的上级医疗机构进行核酸检测，
期间单人单间隔离。核酸检测结果为阳性者，进行集中隔离
管理或送至定点医院治疗，并按照规定进行网络直报。
连续两次新型冠状病毒核酸检测阴性（采样时间至少间
隔 24 小时），可排除疑似病例诊断。

Reread the paragraph, no where in the entire paragraph has the Chinese words asymptomatic (无症状).

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[SanWenYu]

I think whenever case (infection) numbers are reported, the gov't should also report the deaths and hospitalized numbers. The Deaths number matters much more than infection, because vaccines can't prevent infection, but it can prevent deaths/hospitalization.

There have been no death since March 1 when this wave started except 2 deaths reported in Jilin province. These 2 deaths later were clarified as being victims of their existing conditions. But IIRC NHC did not retract the death numbers after the clarification. I guess they are still considered covid deaths.

The official covid guidance previously required to hospitalize all the infected. So you can take the number of infected as the number of hospitalizations. It's only in the latest edition, mild cases are no longer hospitalized. They are quarantined in designated facilities instead. Moderate and more severe cases are hospitalized but NHC and the local health authorities have not started reporting them separately.