Coronavirus 2019-2020 thread (no unsubstantiated rumours!)

LawLeadsToPeace

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Staff member
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Even if you are tripple jabbed with Pfizer/Moderna/J&J, the antibody counts wane over time (~6 mons), and new variants can breakthrough infection, and significant # of children are not even vaccinated.

So I think China eventually needs to realize, even triple/quadruple vaccinated best mRNA will be breakthrough cases, why not focus on antibody cocktails and antiviral drugs to treat these breakthrough cases if they are severe enough for hospitalization and prevent death? The goal should not be preventing infections, but preventing hospitalization and preventing deaths.

As for the long COVID concern, studies have shown that being vaccinated significantly reduces probability of long COVID compared to unvaccinated.
If I remember correctly, according to a UK government review of multiple studies on this matter, vaccination does play a big role in reducing ones chances of getting Covid. However (please correct me if I am wrong), the probability of getting long Covid is from 21 - 50% (review link:
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):

Fully vaccinated participants were about half as likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than unvaccinated participants (odds ratio [OR] = 0.51, 95% CI: 0.32 to 0.82, p=0.005), whereas partially vaccinated participants were about as likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than unvaccinated participants (OR = 1.04, 95% CI: 0.86 to 1.25, p=0.69).
• Fully vaccinated younger adults (18 to 59 years) were much less likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than younger unvaccinated adults (OR = 0.21, 95% CI: 0.08 to 0.59, p=0.003).

Assuming the above is true and everyone gets Covid, if at least 21% of the Chinese populace is at least affected, the economic cost for the country would most likely be high since they can’t work. Fortunately, China isn’t as reliant on exports as before, so China can brunt the temporary economic pain of lockdowns. As long as China doesn’t rely on exports, China can easily take the hits from those lockdowns. China needs to really research the cause behind long covid and, like what you said, antiviral drugs and antibody cocktails. If the cause and the treatment can be identified for this issue, China would no longer need lockdowns. I believe they are most likely doing that, so we’ll just need to wait and see.

The only thing China needs to realize is that the one country two systems concept for HK is a catostrophic failure. The current surge was ultimately caused by Hong Kong’s negligence and incompetence. If there is anything that needs to be changed, it’s Hong Kong.
 
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KYli

Brigadier
Pfizer vaccine against Omicron in children is 12% for infections and 48% for hospitalizations. Sinovac is 38% for infections and 65% for hospitalizations.
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Researchers, who observed about 490,000 children ages 3 to 5 years, estimated the Sinovac shot has effectiveness rates of 38% against Covid-19, 65% against hospitalization, and 69% against an infection severe enough to require admission to an intensive care unit. The study took place during the omicron outbreak in Chile between December and February and was conducted by researchers, mostly working for local universities as well as the country’s health ministry.

vs

The New York State Department of Health found that the effectiveness of Pfizer’s vaccine against Covid infection plummeted from 68% to 12% for kids in that age group during the omicron surge from Dec. 13 through Jan 24. Protection against hospitalization dropped from 100% to 48% during the same period.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
The State Council issued the 9th edition of it's Covid guidance on Mar 14. The new edition takes into consideration of the new medicines on market, and the experience with Delta and Omicron variants.

各省、自治区、直辖市及新疆生产建设兵团卫生健康委、中医药管理局:

当前,新型冠状病毒肺炎疫情仍在世界范围内持续流行,奥密克戎(Omicron)毒株已取代德尔塔(Delta)毒株成为主要流行株,新型冠状病毒肺炎患者临床表现呈现新的特点,且针对新型冠状病毒肺炎治疗的新药物已相继上市,治疗经验和治疗手段进一步丰富。为进一步科学、规范做好新型冠状病毒肺炎诊疗工作,我们组织专家对《新型冠状病毒肺炎诊疗方案(试行第八版修订版)》相关内容进行修订,形成了《新型冠状病毒肺炎诊疗方案(试行第九版)》。现印发给你们,请参照执行。

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国家卫生健康委员会办公厅  国家中医药管理局办公室
2022年3月14日

In particular, the new edition recommends that mild cases no longer need to be admitted to the designated Covid hospitals. They are instead to be quarantined and treated in their own group in "designated facilities" which most likely are makeshift hospitals. The guidance does not mention asymptomatic cases specifically, I assume they are included in the "mild cases" group.

In previous editions, the guidance requires that all confirmed cases must be hospitalized.

This is to relief the designated Covid hospitals from the large number of mild cases caused by Omicron. On the other hand, it could also be the first step to handling Covid as endemic.

"Section 1: Separate patients according to severity

1. Mild cases must be quarantined and treated in designated facilities. These facilities must be isolated from the locations where the close contacts and the oversea entrants are quarantined.

Watch closely for symptom development of the patients. Transfer the patient immediately to a designated hospital when the symptoms start getting severer.

2. Severer cases, including regular, severe and critical, and those who are potentially high risk, must be admitted to the designed hospitals.

Severe and critical cases, and the high risk patients, should be admitted to ICU rooms as early as possible."

一)根据病情确定隔离管理和治疗场所。
1.轻型病例实行集中隔离管理,相关集中隔离场所不能
同时隔离入境人员、密切接触者等人群。隔离管理期间应做
好对症治疗和病情监测,如病情加重,应转至定点医院治疗。
2.普通型、重型、危重型病例和有重型高危因素的病例
应在定点医院集中治疗,其中重型、危重型病例应当尽早收
入 ICU 治疗,有高危因素且有重症倾向的患者也宜收入 ICU
治疗。

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getready

Senior Member
New Cases surge to 30000 yesterday just in NSW alone in Australia. Real number is likely much higher as some with symptoms no longer bother to get tested or report positive results when using RAT

Most likely due to new omicron sub variant that's supposedly 6 times more infectious. But also I think we have completely opened up and many don't wear masks except when using public transports or social distance anymore. Also even though most are double vaccinated, only 60 percent has the third booster shot.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
The State Council issued the 9th edition of it's Covid guidance on Mar 14. The new edition takes into consideration of the new medicines on market, and the experience with Delta and Omicron variants.



In particular, the new edition recommends that mild cases no longer need to be admitted to the designated Covid hospitals. They are instead to be quarantined and treated in their own group in "designated facilities" which most likely are makeshift hospitals. The guidance does not mention asymptomatic cases specifically, I assume they are included in the "mild cases" group.

In previous editions, the guidance requires that all confirmed cases must be hospitalized.

This is to relief the designated Covid hospitals from the large number of mild cases caused by Omicron. On the other hand, it could also be the first step to handling Covid as endemic.

"Section 1: Separate patients according to severity

1. Mild cases must be quarantined and treated in designated facilities. These facilities must be isolated from the locations where the close contacts and the oversea entrants are quarantined.

Watch closely for symptom development of the patients. Transfer the patient immediately to a designated hospital when the symptoms start getting severer.

2. Severer cases, including regular, severe and critical, and those who are potentially high risk, must be admitted to the designed hospitals.

Severe and critical cases, and the high risk patients, should be admitted to ICU rooms as early as possible."



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I'm very curious. How do the Chinese view long covid? I'm sure they know about it. However it seems that Western msm and local media outlets report it much more frequently than do the Chinese.
 

SanWenYu

Captain
Registered Member
I'm very curious. How do the Chinese view long covid? I'm sure they know about it. However it seems that Western msm and local media outlets report it much more frequently than do the Chinese.
Are you asking about the opinions of the public or the doctors and researchers who study long covid?

I don't remember having seen news regarding research on this subject in China. Probably because there are not many long covid patients in China. But I am not in the field so take what I just said with a grain of salt. :)

The public have heard of long covid from the news and stories in the west. Though it's hard to tell whether or not they were taking it seriously because the news and stories took place far away. Perhaps the current Omicron wave in China will change how some of them see long covid.
 
Pfizer vaccine against Omicron in children is 12% for infections and 48% for hospitalizations. Sinovac is 38% for infections and 65% for hospitalizations.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Researchers, who observed about 490,000 children ages 3 to 5 years, estimated the Sinovac shot has effectiveness rates of 38% against Covid-19, 65% against hospitalization, and 69% against an infection severe enough to require admission to an intensive care unit. The study took place during the omicron outbreak in Chile between December and February and was conducted by researchers, mostly working for local universities as well as the country’s health ministry.

vs

The New York State Department of Health found that the effectiveness of Pfizer’s vaccine against Covid infection plummeted from 68% to 12% for kids in that age group during the omicron surge from Dec. 13 through Jan 24. Protection against hospitalization dropped from 100% to 48% during the same period.

When evaluating efficacy rates for hospitalization and severe cases with regards to Omicron, it is important to note that the base rates for hospitalization and severe cases are not the same for Omicron than it is for the base variant and most other variants.

For the vaccinated population, the chance of being hospitalized or developing a severe case from Omicron is not significantly higher when compared to other variants.

Rather, even for unvaccinated individuals, the chance of hospitalization or severe illness is much lower for Omicron than other variants.

Recent statistics show the fatality rate for COVID in the US and other major nations are approaching 0.1%. Taking into account that unvaccinated individuals make up a disproportionately large portion of the deaths, the fatality rate for vaccinated individuals is less than that for the flu already.
 

KYli

Brigadier
When evaluating efficacy rates for hospitalization and severe cases with regards to Omicron, it is important to note that the base rates for hospitalization and severe cases are not the same for Omicron than it is for the base variant and most other variants.

For the vaccinated population, the chance of being hospitalized or developing a severe case from Omicron is not significantly higher when compared to other variants.

Rather, even for unvaccinated individuals, the chance of hospitalization or severe illness is much lower for Omicron than other variants.

Recent statistics show the fatality rate for COVID in the US and other major nations are approaching 0.1%. Taking into account that unvaccinated individuals make up a disproportionately large portion of the deaths, the fatality rate for vaccinated individuals is less than that for the flu already.
South Koreans which have 86% fully vaccination rate and 62% boosted have 0.14% mortality rate. Mortality rate for flu is between 0.05 to 0.1. So even after high vaccination rate and boosted, the mortality rate of covid is still higher than the worst flu season. You also need to take into consideration that covid is much more contagious than flu. That's why I think we are still too early to claim victory over covid.
 

Phead128

Captain
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
If I remember correctly, according to a UK government review of multiple studies on this matter, vaccination does play a big role in reducing ones chances of getting Covid. However (please correct me if I am wrong), the probability of getting long Covid is from 21 - 50% (review link:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
):

Fully vaccinated participants were about half as likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than unvaccinated participants (odds ratio [OR] = 0.51, 95% CI: 0.32 to 0.82, p=0.005), whereas partially vaccinated participants were about as likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than unvaccinated participants (OR = 1.04, 95% CI: 0.86 to 1.25, p=0.69).
• Fully vaccinated younger adults (18 to 59 years) were much less likely to have symptoms lasting ≥28 days than younger unvaccinated adults (OR = 0.21, 95% CI: 0.08 to 0.59, p=0.003).

Probability and Odds Ratios (OR) are two different things. Here is how to interpret the ORs (Odds ratio):
  • An odds ratio of 0.51 means fully vaxxed had 0.51 times the odds of long COVID compared to unvaxxed. In other words, fully vaxxed were 49% less odds of long COVID compared to unvaxxed.
  • An odds ratio of 0.21 means young vaxxed adults were 0.21 times the odds of getting long COVID compared to unvaxxed young adults. In other words, young vaxxed adults is 79% lower than unvaccinated young adults.
Assuming the above is true and everyone gets Covid, if at least 21% of the Chinese populace is at least affected, the economic cost for the country would most likely be high since they can’t work.
The odds ratio is a percent reduction from a fraction, so it's not a probability that can be applied on a large scale.

For example, let's say unvaxxed adults had 15% probability of long COVID. (
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says 7-18%) This is equivalent unvaxxed having to 3 in 17 odds (0.17 or 17%) of long COVID.

If vaxxxed adults had 0.51 lower odds of long COVID compared to unvaxxed, that means the odds of long COVID for adults is 8.7% odds (0.51 * 0.17). And converting 8.7% odds into probability (1/1-p), that means the probability of long COVID for vaxxed adults is 10.3% probability of long COVID.

Summary:
  • vaxxed adult has 10.3% probability of long COVID
  • unvaxxed adult has 15% probability of long COVID
  • assuming an Odds Ratio (OR) of 0.51 of long COVID comparing vaxxed and unvaxxed.
So vaccines is not a silver bullet (though tremendously beneficial)... 10.3% probability of long COVID for vaxxed adults is still pretty high, but likely many are older adults with comorbidities if you break down by age groups. So we need antivirals or antibody cocktails for all breakthrough cases, particularly for older adults with comorbidities :(
 
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