COMAC C929 Widebody Airliner

A deputy GM of COMAC said "C929 has entered the detailed design phase (C929飞机已进入详细设计)", whatever that means.

中国商飞：C929飞机已进入详细设计​

中国航空运输协会微信公众号“中国航协”11月4日消息，3日，由中国航空运输协会主办的首届CATA航空大会在北京开幕。

中国商飞副总经理戚学锋表示，民航业高质量发展是交通强国建设的重要支撑，中国商飞作为国产大飞机主制造商，始终践行“两业融合”发展要求，为民航业高质量发展贡献力量。一是始终牢记初心使命，致力于提供更加优质的产品。C919飞机已顺利取证交付，平稳顺利运营突破1000小时。ARJ21飞机累计交付116架，载客量超过960万人次，已成为中国支线航空市场的主力机型。加快推进大飞机规模化、系列化发展进程，ARJ21型号首批2架货飞机成功交付，公务机、医疗机完成取证。C929飞机已进入详细设计。同时在混、电、氢等新能源飞机等领域布局发力，提供更加经济、舒适、环保的产品。 二是始终坚持客户为中心，为客户创造更多价值。不断完善客户服务能力和运行支持体系，提升飞机经济运营能力。相继开展“环云飞”“环疆飞”等演示飞行，进一步探索国产飞机应用场景，助力中国民航“干支通，全网联”航空运输网络建设。中国商飞将全力打造乘客爱坐、飞行员爱飞、航司愿买的飞机，努力形成“多飞多用、合作共赢”的良好生态。三是始终心怀敬畏，牢牢守住安全发展底线。不断提升产品的安全性可靠性。中国商飞将牢记习近平总书记嘱托，聚焦飞机本质安全，逐步提升飞机产品在设计、制造、运行、维修等全生命周期安全水平。

weig2000 said:

And you do know that Russia has only recently withdrawn from the CR929 program and COMAC has to restart the C929 program after wasting a few years' time, right?

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If anything I think Russia leaving the program will speed it up. There were concerns about how to allocate work share, but now that China is the sole owner of the project, they can basically dictate whatever terms they want to the suppliers, the Russians included.

The only issue is if the US sanctions the project. I wouldn't be surprised to see COMAC sanctioned after the next US elections.

Russia "leaving" the program shouldn't cause any delays whatsoever. Since Russia is still on board as a supplier if COMAC needs to and they are still working on their parts of the project.

gelgoog said:

If anything I think Russia leaving the program will speed it up. There were concerns about how to allocate work share, but now that China is the sole owner of the project, they can basically dictate whatever terms they want to the suppliers, the Russians included.

The only issue is if the US sanctions the project. I wouldn't be surprised to see COMAC sanctioned after the next US elections.

Russia "leaving" the program shouldn't cause any delays whatsoever. Since Russia is still on board as a supplier if COMAC needs to and they are still working on their parts of the project.

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They definitely have to rework the design after Russian withdraw. Russia had played a key role in the requirements and preliminary design phase. It's now back to the drawing board, even though they can recycle some of the ideas. The supplier selections will also be affected.

Agreed though that the development process will speed up now that COMAC is in full control. In fact, I have heard that people involved with CR929 program from the Chinese side had complained that the waiting had been too long and they were losing experienced people to retirements and other changes.

weig2000 said:

They definitely have to rework the design after Russian withdraw. Russia had played a key role in the requirements and preliminary design phase. It's now back to the drawing board, even though they can recycle some of the ideas. The supplier selections will also be affected.

Agreed though that the development process will speed up now that COMAC is in full control. In fact, I have heard that people involved with CR929 program from the Chinese side had complained that the waiting had been too long and they were losing experienced people to retirements and other changes.

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its been 1 and half year since C929 is on drawing board. detailed design phase means they have passed preliminary design stage. its a good news

fuselage/Nose and Tail contract has already been given to Chinese contractors. all are domestic suppliers.

for comparison, C919 was transferred to the detailed design stage after passing the design review in December 2011. first prototype rolled out in November 2015. 4 years

if everything goes well(means no sanctions and delays), the first prototype of C929 will assemble in 2026-2027.

quim said:

Does not make sense. A C929 with western parts should be ready in less time.

It was reported that China abandoned Russia to continue using Western technology and not delay the certification date.

But if the aircraft will only become operational in 2030, why break with Russia and still expect Western goodwill?

By 2030 Russia will already have years of experience with the SSJ-100, MS-21 and PD-35 engine supply chain all Russian made. Probably a redesigned two engine IL-96 widebody too. So a CRAIC CR929 completely without Western components would be viable about 2030.

By 2030, probably China should also have its own supply chain.

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Why do you think or believe it was China abandoning Russia instead of Russia leaving? Those reports were trying to paint a picture of Russia isolated, China "loves" West.

I have said many times, due to the sanction Russia lost the promised world market share of C929, Russia wanted Chinese market instead for compensation, China did not agree to the change, so Russia sees no reason to stay and choose to leave. Regardless the certification date or origin of component, China want to secure the production volume to China made C929. Production volume is the key to keep the program commercially viable.

weig2000 said:

They definitely have to rework the design after Russian withdraw. Russia had played a key role in the requirements and preliminary design phase. It's now back to the drawing board, even though they can recycle some of the ideas. The supplier selections will also be affected.

Agreed though that the development process will speed up now that COMAC is in full control. In fact, I have heard that people involved with CR929 program from the Chinese side had complained that the waiting had been too long and they were losing experienced people to retirements and other changes.

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Whatever Russia has put into the design stays in the design. Those work do not need to be reworked, nor are they blackbox that COMAC can not continue without official Russian involvement. Also remember, Russia left the program in official capacity, if Russia isn't "sabtaging", it can still be part of the program in individual capacity. Didn't Russia say that it is willing to continue as suppliers? That can include R&D and component. In other words, Russia can stay in C929 just like any western companies involved.

In fact, the whole thing of CR929 becoming C929 is nothing more than changing the facade so long as Russia want to be part of it.

taxiya said:

Why do you think or believe it was China abandoning Russia instead of Russia leaving? Those reports were trying to paint a picture of Russia isolated, China "loves" West.

I have said many times, due to the sanction Russia lost the promised world market share of C929, Russia wanted Chinese market instead for compensation, China did not agree to the change, so Russia sees no reason to stay and choose to leave. Regardless the certification date or origin of component, China want to secure the production volume to China made C929. Production volume is the key to keep the program commercially viable.

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Russia is leaving in this scenario obviously because China insisted on relying on western parts and technology rather than creating a sanction-proof solution entirely sino-russian made.

With Boeing and Airbus available on the world market, even without sanctions and delays CR929 would never have a significant global share beyond China, Russia and few countries like Iran or Venezuela markets. So this market share argument does not seem relevant.

The Russian aviation industry is looking for its own way amidst sanctions and is right, while the Chinese aviation still is waiting for sanctions, just like the semiconductor industry before the tech war.

Sorry, but still trust and pay high amounts of money to western companies and governments in this scenario does not seem something to celebrate on the Chinese side.

Russia went through the same process. The SSJ-100 and the MC-21 were highly reliant on Western parts. Even some of the older Soviet civilian transport designs had Western parts added after the collapse. This was typically done to meet modern aviation requirements, or because the older Soviet manufacturers weren't around anymore. Probably located in other Soviet republics and long since dead. Or they were in Ukraine and were also sanctioned supplies after annexation of Crimea.

China is probably expecting the Western sanctions won't happen to the aviation sector. Due to investments like the Airbus A320 NEO factory in China. But I wouldn't bet on that. Like I said before, all the A320 NEO engines use some US components. They are either Safran-General Electric or Pratt & Whitney. So the US can just cut Airbus engine supply and the A320 NEO production in China would totally cease.

quim said:

Russia is leaving in this scenario obviously because China insisted in relying on western parts and technology rather than creating a sanction-proof solution all sino-russian made.

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not completely true. this is one the reasons.

COMAC invested Billion of RMB in joint ventures with western firms. parts/components producing in mainland. not easy to leave all those JVs/supply chain to build alternative supply chain.

C929 localization rate will be much higher than C919. will be surprise for many

COMAC follow block building process. first build the structure with western/domestic parts. then one by one replace all those imported parts. with Russia this was not possible in short period of time. hence partnership broke.

for example, C929 will use Rolls Royce engine initially. how can China or Russia overcome this issue overnight.

quim said:

With Boeing and Airbus available on the world market, even without sanctions and delays CR929 would never have a significant global share beyond China, Russia and few countries like Iran or Venezuela markets. So this market share argument does not seem relevant.

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doesn't matter.

China is the largest aviation market in the world by far. China need 8000+ new aircrafts in the next two decades. COMAC cannot even fulfil domestic demand let alone taking share from Boeing/Airbus.

blessing to have world largest market. this is why COMAC is safe. they can easily play game at home.

quim said:

Sorry, but still trust and pay high amounts of money to western companies and governments in this scenario does not seem something to celebrate on the Chinese side.

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China knows this game very well.

do you think, they are doing nothing and just awaiting sanctions. nope, actually all imported components/parts localization work is under-way. include engines

for example, C919 domestic engine have entered in COMAC supply chain. USA threaten to block LEAP engine sales in 2020 but late on granted the permission.

quim said:

Russia is leaving in this scenario obviously because China insisted on relying on western parts and technology rather than creating a sanction-proof solution entirely sino-russian made.

With Boeing and Airbus available on the world market, even without sanctions and delays CR929 would never have a significant global share beyond China, Russia and few countries like Iran or Venezuela markets. So this market share argument does not seem relevant.

The Russian aviation industry is looking for its own way amidst sanctions and is right, while the Chinese aviation still is waiting for sanctions, just like the semiconductor industry before the tech war.

Sorry, but still trust and pay high amounts of money to western companies and governments in this scenario does not seem something to celebrate on the Chinese side.

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Let me summarize what you are saying. Your first paragraph is saying that China insisted on relying on the west even though there is the high risk of sanction coming. At the end, you critisize China for "doing" this. All your reason is because it is "obviously".

So what I see is that you are doing a strawman argument. First set a target purely based on your mind, then shoot at it. However your target isn't real, for every western item, there is a mirrored Chinese alternative in development. Russian alternative isn't different from Chinese alternative.

If you are right, then the only conclusion is that Chinese government is stupid to sell China's future to the west. TBH, I don't think you are here to some different perspective with us, but purely to make a propaganda, an usual tactic of pretending of being more caring for China than Chinese government, you may know the phrase "打着红旗反红旗".

[edit]
One more reason of my assessment of your being "打着红旗反红旗" is that you are advocating China voluntarily cutting off herself from the world supply chain by excluding cooperation with willing western companies. That is precisely what US has been doing to China.

What China is doing is that, the door is always open to everyone both Russia and West, but China has her own backups for everything for possible eventuality.