Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Semi-Lobster

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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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it was supposed to be delivered this year I think, but I guess now it's postponed, but other than that, not much new on this deal.

The article seems to put more emphasis on a possible light attack role for these K8s rather than simply being a trainer. While the K8 is a very versatile bird, its 1000kg payload isn't exactly the largest around, but it is inexpensive which is probably why it was such an attractive deal to the Venezuelans.
 

tphuang

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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

In recent years, some South American countries have changed their old
traditions relying on the US-made weapons and begun to show interest in
inexpensive Chinese weapons. On January 14, Bolivia's defense minister
said that the country will buy six Chinese fighter jets used for anti-drug
operations.

Some media agencies reported that Bolivia plans to purchase China's
K-8 Karakorum coach/fighter aircrafts.

Mainly used for anti-drug efforts along border

According to reports form the U.S. "Defense News" website, Bolivian
Defense Minister Walker 6¦1 San Miguel said on January 14 that the
country will buy six of Chinese-made fighter jets and 10 Russian-made
helicopters, used for combating the increasingly rampant drug-related
crimes and smuggling.

Miguel said to the local media that Bolivia will allocate 58 million U.S.
dollars to purchase Chinese fighter jets, which are expected to deliver
within 18 months. And these fighter jets are the Chinese-made K-8 "
Karakorum" coach / fighter aircrafts.
Cutting off "air corridor" of drug traffickers

Located in "Silver Triangle", drug-producing area of South America,
Bolivia is the world's 3rd largest coca leaf producer next to Colombia
and Peru.

In recent years, drug traffickers have begun to transport drugs by aircrafts.
In 2008, Bolivia seized six drug trafficking aircrafts. In 2009, the
country intercepted a plane with 340 kilograms of drugs.

Compared with the well-armed drug traffickers, Bolivia's air forces is
weak. The major equipment of Bolivian air forces consists of Beechcraft
T 34 Mentor War Plane of the U.S. and T-33 ¡°silver star¡± coach/attack
airplane of Canada, which are too old.
just announcing officially that Bolivia has ordered 6 K-8s for a little less than $10 million each. K-8 just keeps on scoring deals.
 

tphuang

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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

<pre>(北京時間2010年2月2日12:36)[中港股市透視]

智利將向中國採購17架L-15高教機,2日洪都航空(600316.CH)高開逾 2.13%後,
走勢疲軟。

Apparently a news release saying that China is selling 17 L-15s to Chile. I haven't got confirmation of this anywhere else though.
 

lilzz

Banned Idiot
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Has China obtained the license production technology of engine for JL-15 from
Ukraine yet? Or they still have to order from Ukraine?
The Ukraine Engine supposedly allows to plane going supersonic. Maybe becoming an actually fighter if needed.
 

mean_bird

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

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L-15 Buy Likely Would Phase Out 2 Other Trainers
By Usman Ansari
Published: 1 February 2010 Print | Email

ISLAMABAD - Pakistan may acquire the Chinese L-15 supersonic jet trainer aircraft to equip a unit to transition pilots to advanced fighters, eventually reducing the types of trainers in its fleet from four to two.

The need for the aircraft has arisen despite the operation of the Air Force's current basic/advanced jet trainer, the Sino-Pakistani K-8 Karakorum, which is a highly capable aircraft that has won numerous export orders. Experts dispute whether the L-15, manufactured by Hongdu, is a good fit for Pakistan's needs.

Kaiser Tufail, Pakistani defense analyst and former Air Force air commodore, said, "the L-15 makes sense only if K-8 is used solely for basic flying training and L-15 for fighter conversion. In such a case, the [older] T-37 [trainer] would be redundant.

"Considering the extensive [and expensive] structural life enhancement program that theT-37s have undergone, their useful life has been extended by at least 10 more years. The only solution to the dilemma would be to look for a buyer for the T-37s and recover some much-needed foreign exchange."

Tufail added, "Other than this training stream, the L-15 doesn't quite fit if the K-8 is to perform the role of fighter conversion."

However, defense analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium believes the interest in the L-15 is understandable.

The K-8 had been examined by the Air Force as a possible replacement for the current FT-5, a Chinese-made twin-seat MiG-17 Fresco, in the fighter conversion role when it first entered service in the early 1990s, he said. Pakistan also uses a small number of FT-6 trainers, a Chinese-made two-seat Mig-19 Farmer.

However, the Air Force "most likely felt that a dedicated aircraft purpose-built would be a better option," he said. The 1990s were also a time of considerable financial hardship for Pakistan, so the FT-5 therefore continued in service.

Shabbir further stated, "Now that the availability of an affordable and dedicated aircraft from China is assured, it probably led to the decision to go for the type in preparation for the future high-tech jets such as FC-20 andF-16C/D training requirements."

No official word from the Air Force, or the China Aviation Technology Import-Export Corp., was forthcoming. Officials' refusal to confirm the deal may stem from the fact that negotiations have not reached the final stages.

However, the Air Force has conducted detailed examinations of the aircraft, which included a visit of a single L-15 to Pakistan in December as it transited on its way to the Dubai Airshow. Negotiations are now being undertaken on technical aspects and pricing. The time frame for the conclusion of a deal is unknown.

Limited Combat Role

Like the K-8, the L-15 is also useful in the counterinsurgency role as it can carry a light warload of rockets and bombs, plus air-to-air missiles. There is no indication the aircraft is expected to be tasked with this role, but the capability is a point of interest for Pakistan.

The L-15 competed for orders from the People's Liberation Army Air Force and Naval Air Force against the cheaper and less capable JL-9. The JL-9 is heavily based on the F-7 series of fighters and looks set to be the final evolutionary stage of the MiG-21 Fishbed design.

The F-7 also makes up the backbone of Pakistan's Air Force and therefore the JL-9 could bring cost savings due to commonality, but that advantage appears to have been discounted.

This selling point for the JL-9 may have counted against it in the minds of the service's planners, Shabbir said. The L-15 was probably chosen "precisely because it is the more advanced design," and the "JL-9 most likely is not considered a good enough platform due to its F-7 lineage and airframe design, with its associated future growth limitations."

With the Pakistani F-7 variants expected to be retired this decade, the added cost savings associated with selecting the JL-9 would be unlikely to materialize. Also, the L-15 would allow Pakistan to reap economies of scale because of China's extensive modernization program.

Pakistan's interest in the L-15 may therefore have wider implications. Officially, at least, the L-15 has not fully entered service with the Chinese Air Force, but Pakistan's interest may indicate the Chinese are looking at the L-15 in a more favorable light.
 

mean_bird

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I am not sure what to make of this. Nothing has been official yet but if this is true, it is weird.

Firstly, because L-15 is a twin engine aircraft and PAF has historically (atleast of late) tried to avoid such. But secondly, and most importantly, if this news is true, it might signal that a twin seat JF-17 might be far away if at all. PAF is short on cash and Chengdu might be less interested in investing alone on a twin seater JF-17.

Any indications from the Chinese side both about the L-15 and a twin-seat JF-17?
 

tphuang

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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

That twin seater argument doesn't make sense at all. The idea of using a trainer is that they have far lower operating cost than a 4th generation fighter. The main problem with L-15 in PLAAF is that it doesn't have a domestic engine, but that shouldn't be a problem for PAF. K-8 and L-15 do not have the same flight performance, L-15 is meant to train at a higher level. Twin seated JF-17 and L-15 can also co-exist, although it might not make sense for a budget restricted AF like PAF.
 

mean_bird

New Member
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Twin seated JF-17 and L-15 can also co-exist, although it might not make sense for a budget restricted AF like PAF.

That's the point!

Ideally, having an advanced trainer is a good thing since most jets in PAF inventory are changing from 3rd gen. to 4/4+ with advanced FCS.

I haven't heard a word on a twin-seat JF-17.
 

Munir

Banned Idiot
Re: JL-15 and other trainers

If it means that Hongdu can get a first customer and after that a market then I bet they can make it a win win situation. The engine can be better for PAF like the deal on K8. Two seater seems to be almost done deal. Strangely it is delayed but as far as I read interviews it had to do with PAF not willing to make choices about internal fuel capacity.
 
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