Chinese Trainer Aircraft (JL-8, JL-9, JL-10 (L-15), etc.)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

escobar said:

differences between JL 9 et L15

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Well if you want to know the differences between the JL-9 and the L-15:

JL-9:
Crew 2 men
Length 14.55 m
Wing span 8.32 m
Height 4.1 m
Weight (empty) 4.96 t
Weight (maximum take off) 9.8 t
Engines 1 x WP-13F(C) turbojet
Traction (dry / with afterburning) 4,400kg/6,450kg
Maximum speed 1 700 km/h
Service ceiling 16 km
Ferry range 2 500 km
climb rate 260m/s
max load 8g
Combat radius ?
Cannon 1 x Type 23-1 23-mm cannon
2 000 kg of weapons on four hardpoints, including short-range, air-to-surface and air-to-sea missiles, unguided bombs and rocket pods.

Various PD fire-control radar such as the Grifo S-7 or an indigenous radar rumoured to be capable of BVR missions. HUD + MFDs, RWR, ECM, 1553B databus, INS/GPS, air data computer, mechanical control system.

L-15:

Crew 2 men
Length 12.27 m
Wing span 9.48 m
Height 4.81 m
Weight (empty) 6,5 t
Weight (maximum take off) 9.5 t
Engines 2 x AL-222K-25F
Traction (dry / with afterburning) ?
Maximum speed 1.4 Mach
Service ceiling 16 km
Ferry range 3 100 km
climb rate 150m/s
max load +8.0/-3.0g
Combat radius over 550 km

No built in weapons but has six hardpoints for weapons. glass cockpit, HOTAS control and 3-axis quadruplex digital FBW, FADEC. High LEX, good angle of attack. Still in the testing stages, small design features may fluctuate (they've changes some things here and there several times since the first flying prototype) as it develops and probably won't see service for several years.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

great semi-lobster.thanks

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

escobar said:

differences between JL 9 et L15

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Aside from the differences indicated by Semi-Lobster, this the cost of the airplanes a JL-9 slope one 8 to 10 million $, on the other hand a L-15 this in the 15 million $.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

I'm just curious if in the future the JL-9 could simply be upgraded to feature some of the L-15's more advanced features, such as a glass cockpit, digital FBW and FADEC technology along with general performance upgrades such as the WP-14 engine and KLJ-7 radar which should be compatible with its J-7 based design. It certainly is large enough, its the same size as a regular fighter and has a larger nose for a more powerful radar like the KLJ-7 compared to the small size of the L-15. With nearly being half the cost of the L-15, the JL-9 could probably be upgraded to a more robust trainer for J-10 and J-11 pilots and still be cheaper than the L-15.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

zuhe said:

Aside from the differences indicated by Semi-Lobster, this the cost of the airplanes a JL-9 slope one 8 to 10 million $, on the other hand a L-15 this in the 15 million $.

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not sure about that, should be cheaper than that for PLAAF, I can see it being 5 million.

As for whether or not it can be upgraded with more advanced features. This is what huitong has on his website.

Developed by GAIC since 2001, the aircraft appears to have evolved from the earlier JJ-7/FT-7 design from the same company. However several new features were added including a solid nose housing a modern PD fire-control radar, FC-1 style costal side air intakes, double delta wings (no leading edge flaps), integrated avionics (HUD + MFDs, RWR, ECM, 1553B databus, INS/GPS, air data computer) and a fixed IFR probe for mock IFR training
......
he first fight of an improved JL-9 took place on August 23, 2006, featuring a new stability control augumentation system (CAS) to achieve better performance, an improved cockpit environment control system and a new microwave landing system (MLS)

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Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

not sure about that, should be cheaper than that for PLAAF, I can see it being 5 million.

As for whether or not it can be upgraded with more advanced features. This is what huitong has on his website.

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huitong's site is where I got most of the info in the first place! It seems that its quite simple to upgrade JL-9 which is certainly an asset compared to the L-15. I still think a digital FBW system and FADEC is essential for the JL-9 to be a trainer suitable for the J-10, J-11 and most importantly the J-XX whatevers in the future since these features are how the pilot is going to be flying the plane inthe first place. If theres one common feature in the PLAAF, trainers stay around for a LONG time. Most sources say the Grifo-7 radar is currently being used on the JL-9s but I think an indigenous radar will likely be used in production since I'm not sure how compatible the Grifo-7 can be with Chinese missiles and LGBs. Frankly I think if marketed properly can even give the JF-17 a bit of a challenge for 3rd world export markets beyond the traditional trainer/light attack role. Unlike other jet trainers which are around 11-12m long, the JL-9 is the size of an actual fighter to begin with and if at the very least it does infact the Grifo-7 or better, these countries would have access to a modern BVR capable aircraft with a decent range when they previously did not have any at all unlike say the BAe Hawk 200, Aero L-159A or Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet. They have MLS to deal with substandard runways, with a small (2000kg) but somewhat useful multi-role payload, and an easy transition from MiG-21/J-7 to th J-7E based JL-9 all at a paltry 5 million dollars. Of course 5 million IMO, can't possibly be right though? Thats even less expensive than the F-7PG export J-7s! The JL-9 can't possibly be that low can it?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

huitong's site is where I got most of the info in the first place! It seems that its quite simple to upgrade JL-9 which is certainly an asset compared to the L-15. I still think a digital FBW system and FADEC is essential for the JL-9 to be a trainer suitable for the J-10, J-11 and most importantly the J-XX whatevers in the future since these features are how the pilot is going to be flying the plane inthe first place. If theres one common feature in the PLAAF, trainers stay around for a LONG time. Most sources say the Grifo-7 radar is currently being used on the JL-9s but I think an indigenous radar will likely be used in production since I'm not sure how compatible the Grifo-7 can be with Chinese missiles and LGBs. Frankly I think if marketed properly can even give the JF-17 a bit of a challenge for 3rd world export markets beyond the traditional trainer/light attack role. Unlike other jet trainers which are around 11-12m long, the JL-9 is the size of an actual fighter to begin with and if at the very least it does infact the Grifo-7 or better, these countries would have access to a modern BVR capable aircraft with a decent range when they previously did not have any at all unlike say the BAe Hawk 200, Aero L-159A or Dassault/Dornier Alpha Jet. They have MLS to deal with substandard runways, with a small (2000kg) but somewhat useful multi-role payload, and an easy transition from MiG-21/J-7 to th J-7E based JL-9 all at a paltry 5 million dollars. Of course 5 million IMO, can't possibly be right though? Thats even less expensive than the F-7PG export J-7s! The JL-9 can't possibly be that low can it?

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I don't think they are at the stage of putting radar on JL-9. FADEC is probably not worth it for a trainer that's designed to be cheap. If they upgrade it from WP-13II to Kunlun-2, that would be a good move imo. 5 million might be a little cheap, but let's say that J-7G is around $4 million each for PLAAF. Then, JL-9 has all these new cockpit and slightly expensive flight control system, but since it's not equipping combat stuff yet like a mult-mode radar, it probably will work out not much more than $5 million. With all that + upgraded engine, it might get to $8 million. Of course, exports will go at a premium.

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang said:

I don't think they are at the stage of putting radar on JL-9. FADEC is probably not worth it for a trainer that's designed to be cheap. If they upgrade it from WP-13II to Kunlun-2, that would be a good move imo. 5 million might be a little cheap, but let's say that J-7G is around $4 million each for PLAAF. Then, JL-9 has all these new cockpit and slightly expensive flight control system, but since it's not equipping combat stuff yet like a mult-mode radar, it probably will work out not much more than $5 million. With all that + upgraded engine, it might get to $8 million. Of course, exports will go at a premium.

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Ah so the 5 million was just for the basic airframe itself with no radar. So I guess zuhe's estimate of around 8 million for the complete product is more or less accurate and still almost half the price of the L-15. While the JL-9 certainly has its foot through the door with the PLAAF I believe being able to imporve on the JL-9 is the key if it wants to go up against the more advance L-15. The key difference between an intermediate trainer like the JL-8/L-11 and an advanced trainer is the cockpit layout and control scheme that can best teach a pilot how to fly the advance fighter aircraft he will be flying along with a performance that can mimic those of an advance fighter while at the same time being forgiving and stable enough to be piloted by a novice or trainee pilot. Right now, while the JL-9 is impressive and is a completely indigenous, self-sufficient aircraft unlike the L-15, it lacks several important features of a modern jet fighter that the pilots are supposed to eventually fly. The key Guizhou has to keep in mind is that while the lowest cost for a tender like this is important, if it does not meet the requirements to be a LIFT trainer which is what the PLAAF is looking for, it won't get a follow up contract. The PLAAF isn't an aircraft that is slightly better than the JL-8 or a LIFT trainer for the aging J-7E/Gs and J-8H/Fs, they're lookngi for trainers for China's 4th and 5th generation fighters (or in the Chinese designation 3rd and 4th generation)

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

tphuang what is your opinion on what the PLAAF intends to replace its JJ-7 with? What sort of doctrine or plan do they have for their fighter trainer program? Are they looking for something extremely advanced like the L-15 you think? Or perhaps something 'simpler' like the JL-9? Or perhaps will they aquire both? Neither of the aircraft were developed in house by the PLAAF so both are equally distanced from the PLAAF insiders to be automatically assumed to be the prime contender? Is there even really a competition between the JL-9 and L-15 or has this been completely been blown out of preoportion by western commentors with either aircraft perhaps being used for different training roles entirely? Without the JL-9 succeeding or the possibility of not aquiring Grob, Guizhou really has nothing going for it all, is this a make or break deal for Guizhou to remain viable?

Re: JL-15 and other trainers

Semi-Lobster said:

tphuang what is your opinion on what the PLAAF intends to replace its JJ-7 with? What sort of doctrine or plan do they have for their fighter trainer program? Are they looking for something extremely advanced like the L-15 you think? Or perhaps something 'simpler' like the JL-9? Or perhaps will they aquire both? Neither of the aircraft were developed in house by the PLAAF so both are equally distanced from the PLAAF insiders to be automatically assumed to be the prime contender? Is there even really a competition between the JL-9 and L-15 or has this been completely been blown out of preoportion by western commentors with either aircraft perhaps being used for different training roles entirely? Without the JL-9 succeeding or the possibility of not aquiring Grob, Guizhou really has nothing going for it all, is this a make or break deal for Guizhou to remain viable?

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i think PLAAF need both jl-9 and l-15
the first will play the role of trainer for plane like j-10 ,j-11 and
the second for j-xx
what do you think semi?