Chinese submarines thread

[GarethB]

Re: Chinese sub thread

From what i have heard in Australia, the Collins class is one of the noisiest modern SSKs. Correct me if i am wrong. But there had been many problems related to its noise which was reported in Australia. Correct me if i am wrong because maybe they have fixed it by now.

Most of the noise problems seem to have been solved. There are three basic types of noise a submarine creates. One is noise from inside the submarine itself, such as it's motors. The second is noise created by the propellor as it turns, called cavitation. The third is noise created by a bad shape of the oustide hull of the submarine, this is called "flow noise".

The Collins submarines are an enlarged version of the Swedish Gotland submarine. The Gotland submarines have a reputation for being very quiet, but when the design was made bigger for the Collins class the outside shape of the hull made more flow noise and the bigger propellor made more cavitation (and the propellors developed cracks in them). The cavitation noise problem was solved by making new propellors with a new shape. Taking the old propellor off and putting a new one on a submarine is not a hard thing to do.

The hull flow noise problem was harder to deal with because it required changing the shape of the outside of the hull. This was done by adding extra lightweight pieces to the hull in important locations (just like adding a "body kit" to the body of a car). It has helped reduced hull flow noise but not solved it completely.

There are still problems with the combat electronics systems used in the Collins subs, but a contract has already been signed to replace the combat electronics systems in them with a smaller version of the combat electronics systems used in the US Virginia class submarines. The change of these electronics systems for all of the Collins submarines is expected to be completed by 2010.

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Would those small pieces you speak of added to the hull of the submarine be anechoic tiles? I know the tiels muffled noise, but do they serve another purpose like that?

 

[GarethB]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Would those small pieces you speak of added to the hull of the submarine be anechoic tiles? I know the tiels muffled noise, but do they serve another purpose like that?

No, I wasn't talking about anechoic tiles. One of the main functions of anechoic tiles is to reduce internal noise from the submarine (eg noise from the main motor, pumps, etc) from getting into the water. Anechoic tiles can also help reduce the returned signal from an active sonar ping.

When I mentioned adding pieces to the hull to reduce hull flow noise, moulded sections of kevlar/fibreglass were made that were attached to the hull to change it's shape, especially around the bow and around the join between the hull and the sail (conning tower/fin). These changes alter the way the water flows over the surface of the hull, reducing turbulence. It's the water turbulence that actually makes hull flow noise. The changes didn't drastically reshape the hull, they were refinements to the existing shape.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Most of the noise problems seem to have been solved. There are three basic types of noise a submarine creates. One is noise from inside the submarine itself, such as it's motors. The second is noise created by the propellor as it turns, called cavitation. The third is noise created by a bad shape of the oustide hull of the submarine, this is called "flow noise".
The Collins submarines are an enlarged version of the Swedish Gotland submarine. The Gotland submarines have a reputation for being very quiet, but when the design was made bigger for the Collins class the outside shape of the hull made more flow noise and the bigger propellor made more cavitation (and the propellors developed cracks in them). The cavitation noise problem was solved by making new propellors with a new shape. Taking the old propellor off and putting a new one on a submarine is not a hard thing to do.
The hull flow noise problem was harder to deal with because it required changing the shape of the outside of the hull. This was done by adding extra lightweight pieces to the hull in important locations (just like adding a "body kit" to the body of a car). It has helped reduced hull flow noise but not solved it completely.
There are still problems with the combat electronics systems used in the Collins subs, but a contract has already been signed to replace the combat electronics systems in them with a smaller version of the combat electronics systems used in the US Virginia class submarines. The change of these electronics systems for all of the Collins submarines is expected to be completed by 2010.

NO my friend the collin is far from the best sub around the gotland hull may be sutiable for a small1500ton sub but not for the ocean going boat the Aussies need

the propeller arrangement is flawed to begin with OK at slow speed on a small boat but not on the collins

there have been repeated problems with the main engine one of the reason is because its converted from one used on a oil drilling platform

the little "patch" in fornt of the conning tower wont reduce too much noise only reducing the flow noise a little

compared with the kilo its got no chance

its also poorly armed with only torperdos right now all new subs have either AIP or sub launched missile like the club

 

[tphuang]

Re: Chinese sub thread

some interesting stuff. This link contains some of the photos of the inside of 039G Song compared to U-212.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Here is a page that describes China's torpedoe development

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

■ 现役潜用鱼雷

中国海军最早装备的鱼雷是鱼-1型热动力直航鱼雷。这种鱼雷是非制导的舰潜通用鱼雷，50年代与P-6鱼雷艇和潜艇等作战舰艇一同引进，原型为苏制53型瓦斯热动力鱼雷。这种鱼雷航程较短，航速与氧气鱼雷相同，但使用简便安全得多。中苏关系破裂时，中国只有样品鱼雷而无完整蓝图。因再无引进蓝图的可能，于是通过拆解手头鱼雷进行逆向设计。虽然在60年代已经投入使用，但1971年才定型。鱼-1型直径533毫米，长7.8米，战斗部400千克，采用瓦斯热动力推进系统，最高航速50节，最大航程10千米。这种鱼雷虽然航速较高，战斗部威力较大，但由于没有制导系统，因此只能采取全程浅航深攻击水面目标。另外，热动力会产生很明显的尾迹，容易过早暴露而遭到拦截，而且潜艇发射阵位也暴露无遗。80年代中期，中国海军装备论证研究中心改良研制出声导系统，使其作战能力大幅提高，目前依旧是中国海军潜艇的主要武器。在鱼雷艇逐渐退出现役后，海军库存尚有超过数千枚的该型鱼雷。

近年，中国利用鱼-6型鱼雷的相关技术，在鱼-1型基础上改装线导和尾流自导反舰鱼雷，改进后的鱼雷称为鱼-1甲型。在中国一些公开刊物中，有使用这种热动力自导反舰鱼雷的报道。鱼-1甲鱼雷已经大量装备33型和35型潜艇，主要用于反水面目标。早期出厂批次的33型潜艇无需任何改装就能发射鱼-1甲鱼雷。

1985年之前，鱼-3 型鱼雷是中国海军的第一种自制大型声导深水反潜鱼雷。60年代中期，中国海军为核潜艇配套研制一种深水反潜鱼雷作为匹配武器装备，设计要求该型鱼雷采用电动推进和被动声导系统，在深水攻击敌方潜艇（尤其是核潜艇）时，不受背压影响。当时闭循环等新型动力系统尚未出现，中国根据国内水平选择电动力是较为合理的方案。1964年冬，705研究所开始论证这种电动声导反潜鱼雷，1966年3月，国防科工委批准了研制方案，并命名为鱼-3反潜鱼雷。在研制中，先后突破了高性能银锌电池、铝合金焊接鱼雷壳体、多波束自导装置等关键技术。1969年制出首具样雷，但迟至1984年才研制成功。1988年5月，“汉”级核潜艇在海南深水实验场成功地进行了水下深海发射试验。该发射系统能捕获目标并自动跟踪，一次过靶失掉目标后，仍可再次搜索与再次攻击。80年代后期， 705研究所又对鱼-3型加以改良，1991年试验成功性能更优良的鱼-3甲改进型，亦称为“中华鲟”二型反潜鱼雷。鱼-3改的最大特点，推测是导引系统由单一被动声导改为主被动联合声导，攻击导引精度和稳定性有较大提高。根据台湾资料，鱼-3型鱼雷最大射程为15千米，最大使用深度约240米，最高航速为40节。

鱼-4型鱼雷是中国海军装备的第一种自制大型潜用自导反舰鱼雷。该型鱼雷为33型和35型潜艇的主战装备，最新的39型潜艇也配备有该型鱼雷。鱼-4型是以苏制SAET-60型电动声导鱼雷为基础仿制改良而成的。50年代后期，中国海军从苏联引进了样雷和图纸以便进行仿制。60 年代初，中国决定集中力量首先研制鱼-1型鱼雷，因此延迟了电动声导反舰鱼雷的研制。最初，负责导引系统研制的东风仪表厂和西北工业大学分别提出不同的方案。最后决定两个方案同时采用，前者为被动声导型鱼-4甲型，后者为主被动联合声导型鱼-4乙型。鱼雷总体设计制造和全雷总装协调则由平阳机械厂承担。经过近10年的努力，鱼-4甲型首先研制成功，1984年2月设计生产定型。鱼-4航速比苏制SAET-60提高百分之二十以上。导引及惯性引信的稳定性与可靠性也有很大提高。鱼-4乙型的研制有许多突破，采用了新型战雷头、排水装置、腹鳍尾等设计，用小型电控深装置取代了原来的机械控深装置，大大改善了鱼雷的航行性能。该型鱼雷在1984年2月设计定型。鱼-4乙型的研制成功，填补了中国海军主被动联合声导反舰鱼雷的空白。由于鱼-4型鱼雷的原准型 SAET-60是二战德国鱼雷的改进型号，设计概念有很大的局限性，被动声导反水面舰艇受海况、环境和目标噪声水平影响很大，因此这型鱼雷系统作战效能有限。目前，反舰鱼雷多采用线导和尾流导引技术克服影响因素，鱼-4型鱼雷同样可能向这个方向改进。90年代，中国在尾流自导技术上取得了进展，由于鱼-4 型鱼雷最大射程仅有15千米，不适合单纯采用航程损失大的尾流自导，因而可能采用线导和尾流自导的联合方式。

80年代中期，中国决定研制大型线导反潜鱼雷作为039 型潜艇的配套武器装备，要求采用大功率、远航程的OTTO热动力系统，中段采用线导，末段为主被动联合声导，该型鱼雷为鱼-6型。在研制过程中，采用了与美国和欧洲技术合作的成果。1990年初，中国宣布成功地测试了一种新式大型鱼雷，该型鱼雷最大射程约30千米，最大航速50节。这是鱼-6型鱼雷最早公开的官方消息。鱼-6型的研制成功，显示了中国鱼雷在热能源动力技术方面已有突破，对于中国鱼雷武器的发展具有极为重要的意义。鱼-6型的研制成功，使中国海军常规动力潜艇具备了很好的反潜作战能力。

测量目标运动要素

潜艇发动鱼雷攻击前，必须要测量目标的运动要素。老式SQZ系列综合声呐的和侦察声呐测量精度能够满足直航鱼雷和自导鱼雷的作战，主要问题是对安静潜艇的探测距离短，自动化程度低，不能直接连接火控和指挥系统且抗干扰性能不足。对这类声呐进行改进，虽然能够提高自动化水平和有限度地改善探测距离及抗干扰指标，但前端基阵性能局限，响应速度等指标难以提高，一些信号成分的损失在所难免。90年代安装了法国的DUUX-5型被动测距声呐后，探测性能指标达到了先进水平，虽然这型声呐主要是用于33型和35型艇上使用的意大利A184线导和声自导鱼雷，但火控系统与国产鱼雷系统同样兼容。

通常采用的火控测量计算方法有两方位两距离法、三方位一要素法、四方位法和滤波估计法。所谓两方位法是指两次用潜望镜采样目标方位距离等运动要素，而三方位则指用综合声呐等输入三条目标方位距离等参数，四方位法同理。其中两方位法需要将探测装置伸出海面，而三方位和四方位法无需伸出探测桅杆。但是三方位和四方位法数据来源于各传感器分系统和本艇导航分系统，计算非常复杂繁琐，在老式潜艇上实施很麻烦，而有先进的火控系统则能自动完成并直观显示在相关终端上。除以上方法外，现代潜艇火控多数采用滤波估计法。这是一种更复杂精确的火控计算法，应用各种探测分系统的数据进行平差处理计算，适应鱼雷的精确打击，使火控系统的精确度提高，鱼雷损失的几率减小，而且在使用未改进的鱼-3和鱼-4型鱼雷时，也能够有较高的目标截获率。在北京举办的“国防电子展”上，中国研制的火控终端系统能够综合导航、声呐和雷达等分系统数据，并进行更为复杂的显示和控制。

■ 直航鱼雷作战

现代潜艇作战中，直航鱼雷的作用虽有所下降，但在很多外界水文气象条件使自导鱼雷失去使用效果时，直航鱼雷的作用还是非常有效的。在中国海军潜艇作战中，直航鱼雷的作战不仅仅是指鱼-1型瓦斯蒸汽热动力鱼雷的作战，而且还包括声自导和尾流自导鱼雷不能作为自导鱼雷使用时也当成直航鱼雷使用的情况。

直航鱼雷进行攻击时，探测设备精度、火控系统计算以及鱼雷自身产生缺陷等带来的误差将导致鱼雷产生较大的射击散布，因此直航鱼雷的射击组织通常采用鱼雷转角扇面齐射，来保证命中目标。攻击艇首先通过探测设备确定目标位置，然后推算目标预定航迹构成的预定航程边，通过本艇的导航系统数据，再综合计算出敌我相对位置、转角射击三边型，确定射击扇面中线和齐射的各枚鱼雷有利散角和发射间隔，然后进入发射攻击。鱼雷的散角由鱼雷的陀螺仪设定，使各条鱼雷射向与齐射扇面中线有不同的夹角，以保证鱼雷有一定的散布，增大命中概率；而发射间隔是避免齐射的鱼雷之间发生碰撞。早期中国海军的某些射击指挥仪是机电式，需要手工装定。现代中国海军潜艇全由火控系统自动装定。

导鱼雷作战

中国海军认为，声自导鱼雷实际上可以区分为单平面反舰和双平面反潜两种作战类型，而鱼雷则相应分为单平面反舰鱼雷、双平面反潜鱼雷以及单、双平面反舰反潜通用鱼雷。通常情况下，声自导鱼雷也会因各种因素造成的误差导致散布大而脱靶，因此中国海军在评价声自导鱼雷作战时，也倾向采取2至3枚鱼雷齐射来弥补可能的散布。通常情况下，声自导鱼雷采用沿齐射扇面中线平行航向齐射。鱼雷发射后，先转向航行一段时间，拉开与前面发射的自导鱼雷平行距离后，再转为平行航行于扇面中线直至命中目标。转向平行航行的转角称为二次转角。有时攻击艇也采取扇面齐射，不设定自导鱼雷的二次转角。

对于火控系统而言，发射自导鱼雷的计算与直航鱼雷不同，需要增加二次转角、有利展开角和有利展开航行段航程、自导提前开机距离的计算等。鱼-3改、鱼-4乙和鱼-6等多模式自导鱼雷还要增加装定工作方式。老式的射击指挥仪通常难以完成这些计算。在老式火控系统的作战平台上使用自导鱼雷，一般采用人工计算与查射表相结合，凭借熟练的技能和丰富的经验完成复杂的计算。一些知识和经验丰富的艇员能够配合默契，直接观看各种探测系统数据，通过心算估计迅速完成自导鱼雷的射击诸元装定。但这些都是在不得已的环境中锤炼出来的奇迹，难以推广普及。中国海军兵役制度往往造成千辛万苦训练出来的高水平潜艇组，不到一年就将因为人员服役期满而解体。但中国海军发展先进的以及具有友好人机界面的火控系统，能够在艇员不断更替和知识水平参差不齐的情况下，使潜艇持续保持很高的作战水平。

采用鱼-3和鱼-4型自导鱼雷作战与直航鱼雷过程类似，对发射系统没有特殊要求。而线导鱼雷则需要改进鱼雷发射系统，以便安放导线鼓和切除导线。中国海军对于反舰鱼雷更注重线导的尾流自导鱼雷，其中鱼-1甲等射程在10千米内的鱼雷采用尾流自导缺乏航程优势。而中段采取线导能够将其引导至舰艇附近切入尾流，缩短穿越尾流的无效航程，尽快命中目标。由于中国海军广泛使用的鱼-1型发动机采用蒸汽瓦斯，航行深度有限，通常难以隐蔽航迹。而改进的鱼-1甲型鱼雷很可能采用中段线导，在30米左右深度航行，至目标800米距离再上升到2至3米深度搜寻尾流。反潜型的双平面鱼雷通常采取发射到目标深度后，再改为保持深度航行，进行水平搜索。按照中国海军的齐射观点，鱼-3型反潜鱼雷射向目标区后，在不同深度开始自导搜索，但是被动声导在目标停车后会丢失目标，需要攻击艇的调频主动声呐进行导引。深水中可能存在声跃层，使攻击艇声呐难以探测到目标。可见鱼-3被动方式并不理想。鱼-3甲改进型的主被动声导则可以在目标停车后转为主动模式搜索。

自导鱼雷有因攻击艇火控误差和环境造成目标脱离自导搜索范围的情况，而且是很常见的现象，增加线导能够用攻击艇的系统予以弥补。线导的鱼-6型鱼雷能够随时修正弹道，传言鱼-6型鱼雷使用双向数据线导，潜艇能够控制鱼雷穿透声跃层，依靠鱼雷自导头获取声跃层另一面的目标信号，然后回送火控系统进行综合修正，但是否属实还不得而知。

与先进鱼雷的比较

中国自导鱼雷研制经历了漫长的岁月，而且步履艰难，这其中文革产生的影响很大，导致水声场基础研究以及元件等方面的研究落后。进入80年代，中国不仅要重新起步，还要补课。能够用于实战和装备部队的鱼雷系统，不仅仅是鱼雷本身，还包括火控系统、探测系统等相关分系统的完善，才能使装备具有实用价值。中国的滞后未必是鱼雷技术本身，系统的原因更大。进入90年代，中国从获取的西方及俄罗斯技术中受益匪浅，鱼雷技术发展迅速。与目前世界先进水平相比，虽然存在差距，但已经不是具有影响作战能力的差距。

西方国家的领先之处在于传感器和部件的精度和成品率。中国在80年代获得了美国MK-46和意大利A244S、A184鱼雷后，不仅在传感器原理与结构设计方面有了重大变革，而且设计思路和信号处理等都进步巨大。可靠寻的是鱼雷最关键的性能，中国在这方面接近或达到了西方水准。中国的问题在于工艺和质量，加强这些方面要依靠设备和管理方面的改进。目前西方阵列换能器多采用压电陶瓷，数量约为30至 160个，其中英国先进的“虎鱼”鱼雷为55个，美国海军的MK-48型鱼雷约52个，中国的鱼-6型鱼雷的压电陶瓷阵列换能器估计会超过“虎鱼”。相当于意大利A184鱼雷使用的的160换能器全景阵列也在研究中。不过意大利的这种全景阵列是否有很好的性能目前还难以确认。

中国在信号处理技术应用方面与西方差异不大。现役的美国和西方国家潜射鱼雷中，多数采用摩托罗拉的68000处理器，欧洲的先进鱼雷还有自成体系的微机系统作后处理，而意大利的A184鱼雷则采用英特8086处理器。中国鱼雷的处理器至少较美国目前的处理器运算速度高。虽然过高的处理器速度并无必要，但可以弥补中国在基础算法方面的落后，同时有更多的带宽用于增加功能和提高性能。中国的硬件体系目前已经超过俄罗斯的技术水平，控制和算法等因为有高速的硬件体系支持，即便运算时间开销大，系统速度也能够不亚于欧美先进鱼雷的控制系统。西方发展的反鱼雷手段主要是噪声干扰和信号遮蔽，当鱼雷导引阵列将这些信号都收入后，剩下的就是信号处理技术和速度。中国鱼雷控制系统预留带宽大，对实现抗干扰更加有利。90年代后期，线导鱼雷的导线出现逐渐为光纤所取代的趋势，中国是光纤生产大国，但是在生产鱼雷或导弹制导光纤的抗拉轻质材料方面的研究还与欧美有一定差距。从目前公开发表的学术论文中，可以推断中国不久就会出现实用的光纤产品。

在美国和西方现役鱼雷中，依旧有很多类似鱼-1型蒸汽瓦斯热动力鱼雷的型号，如英国海军的MK-8鱼雷等。中国在80年代已经获得先进的OTTO-II热动力系统技术，鱼-6鱼雷已经采用这种技术，热动力鱼雷动力系统已与世界基本同步。早期电动力系统中，国产银锌海水电池有体积大、工作时间短和功率密度不高的问题，90年代这些问题已经得到解决，其中部分产品还能够出口。中国潜射鱼雷的研究和生产技术水平已经与世界发达国家相当。
由于装备了大量的国产先进鱼雷，中国海军潜艇的作战能力得到了很大的提高。鱼雷制导武器系统和不断改进的潜艇火控系统相结合，使人民海军庞大的潜艇群作战能力达到了发达国家水平

 

[MIGleader]

Re: Chinese sub thread

I must say...the sogn looks pretty decent with controls, but rather idsappoints men when i compare it to the u-212 or agusta90B. Think yuan's interior looks better?

 

[Gollevainen]

Re: Chinese sub thread

It sure looks light years more modern that the sole sub i've been in, A soviet Juliett class SSG.

 

[Typhoon]

China's Underground Nuclear Submarine Base

Hi, everyone, I register today as the new forum member and this is my very first post. Hope you guys find it both entertaining and informative.

The big news today is the pictures of Chinese SSN/SSBN base and underground base that are "discovered" by western news media.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Of course, Bill Gertz of Washington Times got very excited about this. He jumped up and down, and said it is the evidence that China trys to hide its "nuke buildup". He didn't know underground aubmarine base is not something new, German had that even before World War II.

On the other hand, Bill Gertz must be disappointed that the picture didn't show Chinese hides a whole aircraft carrier attack group underground. Maybe his Pentagon friend who always insists to speak on the condition of anonymity can help him with this next time, HeHeHe!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Enjoy! :nana:

 

[Lavi]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Please Darth, could you provide some sources? As far as I have understood the Collins nowadays are silent and reliable boats (Chris Chant's Warships Today if anyone wants a source) after they have been rebuilt, and I can't see any reason why the flow noise wouldn't be affected by the reshaping of the hull.

I am not going to comment on the issue wheter it will beat a 877 'Kilo', because the later is more a 'family' of subs than a number of exact copies, and therefore they vary in performance quite a lot, not to even mention the differences in training between different operators. However the Stirling engine would give the Collins a considerable edge in longer hunts and when it comes to detecting and tracking its foe.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Please Darth, could you provide some sources? As far as I have understood the Collins nowadays are silent and reliable boats (Chris Chant's Warships Today if anyone wants a source) after they have been rebuilt, and I can't see any reason why the flow noise wouldn't be affected by the reshaping of the hull.
I am not going to comment on the issue wheter it will beat a 877 'Kilo', because the later is more a 'family' of subs than a number of exact copies, and therefore they vary in performance quite a lot, not to even mention the differences in training between different operators. However the Stirling engine would give the Collins a considerable edge in longer hunts and when it comes to detecting and tracking its foe.

TRY LOOK AT THE SUB THEN TALK!!!!:non o:

don you see ANY new subs built to that shape the Tall coning tower is a dead give away

the propeller arangement is poor for high speed (above 7 knots)

it lacks missiles for attack aginst surface ships making an attack sicuide aginst mordern asw forces

the main engine is a design converted for one used on a drilling plarform DO YOU WANT ME TO FLOOD THIS PAGE WITH ARTICALS ON ENGINE FALIURE!!!!!!!

YOU CAN SIMPLY ENLARGE A DESIGN BY 200% ANDS EXPECTED IT TO WORK