Chinese submarines thread

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Not a chance, the Americans are at least 2 generations (probably 3) ahead in SSN. 091 was just an experiment. 093 is at Akula I level if it's lucky. The Russian SSNs and SSGNs might match the noise level of improved LA class, but nothing the Russians have can match that. of course, there is also the militarization of the pebble stone reactor, but i don't know if that is actually done or not.

According to a sonar tech I know no nuke sub built outside of the US is as quiet as one built by General Dynamics Electric Boat Division. None...The auxillary equipment just makes too much noise on nuke subs built outside of the US. Those countries need better noise dampening equipment and methods.

 

[xihaoli]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Although i do agree with the fact that the Virginia SSN's are currently the best in the world, we cannot dismiss the power of the Russian Ship building Industry. With their economy improving, i can definitely see a restart of the canceled project (Someone fill me in will you?) class. If we look at the soviet developments, if the soviet union had not collapsed when it did, the next generation Russian Submarine would have been put into survice ahead of the Seawolf.

The 093 is no ways a waste of money, although i do oppose the mass production of it. Nuclear submarines are the toys of the big boys, once you get one, everyone will start making a fuss about it and start tracking them with their own SSNs. It is true that the 093 is in no ways comparable to a Virginia, but the speed and abilities of such a craft provides data on the power of the chinese nuclear submarine industry, as well as providing commanders to assess the tactics involving MODERN nucelar subs. It also would provide a "Blue Navy" aspect of the PLAN, both in traning as enemy subs, and as deep sea prowlers.

Popeye, as for your comment about america always having superior submarine tech, i would say that thsi was no particularly true in the 70-80's with russian's help in developing higher bladed/quality propellars. The often ignored Sierra class SSGN can be regarded one of the best submarines of its time, interms of firepower to speed and noise level. The LA might have been quieter, but only by a little, and the Sierra's had the size and firepower to make up for it.

Although i have no doubt that American sub tech in currently the best in the world, i highly doubt it will continue as the russian industry will be sure to at least be equal to it. Remeber, the times are changing......and theres a reason your old....

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Popeye, as for your comment about america always having superior submarine tech, i would say that thsi was no particularly true in the 70-80's with russian's help in developing higher bladed/quality propellars. The often ignored Sierra class SSGN can be regarded one of the best submarines of its time, interms of firepower to speed and noise level. The LA might have been quieter, but only by a little, and the Sierra's had the size and firepower to make up for it.

Although i have no doubt that American sub tech in currently the best in the world, i highly doubt it will continue as the russian industry will be sure to at least be equal to it. Remeber, the times are changing......and theres a reason your old....

My friend you know not of what you speak. Russian nuke subs no matter when they were built are noisey and leak radation. Period. And are in no way or they have ever been superior to USN nuke boats. Period. The Russians will never ever put to sea a submarine equal in realiablity and quietness as any US sub. Ain't gonna happen. Why? They never have before. They don't have the money or need for such an undertaking.

From October '77 until November 1980 I was assigned to HSL-31(ASW helo squadron). I learned quite a bit about Russian subs. Because back then they were a threat. I attened many classified lectures about the Russian Navy. I also saw many classified movies about the Russian subs and the Russian Navy. And still retain much of that knowledge.

My son is the sonar tech of which I speak. He has been on active duty in the USN for almost 8 years as a sonar tech. Presently he is an instructor of advanced sonar technology at the ASW training base in San Diego CA. He tells me things about the modern US Navy. Unclassified of course. I once asked him why desiel subs were so hard to track. He replied because they run on batteries when submerged. He also replied that all non-US nuke boats were easier to track because non-US built subs have poor sound dampening equipment. He said that US nuke boats were the most difficult to find because of superior technology. That's what he said. I believe him. It goes right along with what I learned almost 30 years ago..

When I post in this forum I am generally speaking from my experience or my son's . Even some friends I have that are still on active dty or work in the defense industry. Not something I read. If I am wrong I will freely admidt it. I enjoy posting in this forum because you young people here are so intelligent.

Yes I'm old. I'm 52. I've been around the world 3 times. I made 7 major deployments in the USN on 5 different CV's. I've visited 22 nations and 35 of the 50 US states. I've owned two homes and a total of 27 automobiles in my life. I have worldly experience.

Thanks.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

My friend you know not of what you speak. Russian nuke subs no matter when they were built are noisey and leak radation. Period. And are in no way or they have ever been superior to USN nuke boats. Period. The Russians will never ever put to sea a submarine equal in realiablity and quietness as any US sub. Ain't gonna happen. Why? They never have before. They don't have the money or need for such an undertaking.

From October '77 until November 1980 I was assigned to HSL-31(ASW helo squadron). I learned quite a bit about Russian subs. Because back then they were a threat. I attened many classified lectures about the Russian Navy. I also saw many classified movies about the Russian subs and the Russian Navy. And still retain much of that knowledge.

My son is the sonar tech of which I speak. He has been on active duty in the USN for almost 8 years as a sonar tech. Presently he is an instructor of advanced sonar technology at the ASW training base in San Diego CA. He tells me things about the modern US Navy. Unclassified of course. I once asked him why desiel subs were so hard to track. He replied because they run on batteries when submerged. He also replied that all non-US nuke boats were easier to track because non-US built subs have poor sound dampening equipment. He said that US nuke boats were the most difficult to find because of superior technology. That's what he said. I believe him. It goes right along with what I learned almost 30 years ago..

When I post in this forum I am generally speaking from my experience or my son's . Even some friends I have that are still on active dty or work in the defense industry. Not something I read. If I am wrong I will freely admidt it. I enjoy posting in this forum because you young people here are so intelligent.

Yes I'm old. I'm 52. I've been around the world 3 times. I made 7 major deployments in the USN on 5 different CV's. I've visited 22 nations and 35 of the 50 US states. I've owned two homes and a total of 27 automobiles in my life. I have worldly experience.

Thanks.

in 1977 the russian relies mostly on the november and he victory class SSN design in the 50s/eraly 60s and yes they are horrible

the raditation leak you are talking about mostly klikely refers to ethe VM-1A reactor e.g the ones on the K-19

BUT thats OLD news the russian made great improvemnet in the 80s through the aquission of a tushiba milling machine adn other quieting fetures

the Sierra class SSGN is quiet enough to ram the USS banton rouge thanks to its titanium construction its recuved little damage where as the banton rouge was almost sank and has to be decommonssioned.it also carries a much heavier weapons tehen the LA class

their Mike class submarine can operate effectively at 1000 meters!(1300m possible ) right now there are no weapon capable of even hitting it

the Akula russia has right now is basicaly a cheape version of the Sierra made out of steel to reduce cost

 

[bd popeye]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Most you guys put together have zero days in anyones military. None .Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. In actuality you guys have no experience. I do. 20 friggin years. I wish I could yell you certian facts but I cannot. I forgot more about subs than some of you will ever know. And if I did you would dispute them anyway. So what's the use.? All I'm trying to do is point out the facts.

Everytime I post the truth you guys dispute it or point out some obscure fact that does not mount to a hill of beans.

If you fellows want to think that those old Russian subs are equal or better than US subs..... Well go right ahead. The truth remains the truth. They aren't, never have been nor will they ever be.

The Russian sub that struck the USS Baton Rouge SSN-689 never returned to service as neither did the Baton Rouge. And just how many subs does Russia put to sea everyday? Mike class sub? Was not the Kursk a mike class sub? Great technology those Russians make. And yes I'm well aware of USN sub accidents....Thresher, Scroipon, Greenville and San Francisco..Not to mention the only USN desiel sub the USS Dolphin.

Keep smilin'

And now I will follow the advice of one slacpiv!..This was posted in another thread in this forum

Sea Dog. Just give up. You're in a Chinese military forum. If the people here believe that china can hit a moving target the size of vessel when no missile can do that against a static target, then let them. If they think China can launch their 200 - 300km missiles at US naval assets without being harrased by F-18S, sea wolfs, LAs, then they can. If they think that they can launch missiles without over the horizon reconaissance, then they can. If they dont believe that the sm-3, sm-3, ESSM, sea ram, or the phalanx can intercept their missiles when they number in the hundreds in a US carrier group, let them. If they think the only thing to stealth technology is an airframe and paint, let them. If they thin the 093 is more powerful than anything the Russians have to offer when every other soures days it's in the same class as the victor III, let them. If they think the J-10 is more capable than a su-27 when most sources say it's on the same level as a f-16 blk 30, let them. If they think China can catch up in engine, radar, and avionics technology in less than a decade to match the f-22 let them. If they think cheap labor can get them cheap advanced fighters, let them. If they think that they can take on 4+ US carriers at once, let them. If they think they have the same level of missile saturation ability as the soviets did in the hieght of their power let them. I've given up.

 

[darth sidious]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Most you guys put together have zero days in anyones military. None .Zero. Zip. Zilch. Nada. In actuality you guys have no experience. I do. 20 friggin years. I wish I could yell you certian facts but I cannot. I forgot more about subs than some of you will ever know. And if I did you would dispute them anyway. So what's the use.? All I'm trying to do is point out the facts.

Everytime I post the truth you guys dispute it or point out some obscure fact that does not mount to a hill of beans.

If you fellows want to think that those old Russian subs are equal or better than US subs..... Well go right ahead. The truth remains the truth. They aren't, never have been nor will they ever be.

The Russian sub that struck the USS Baton Rouge SSN-689 never returned to service as neither did the Baton Rouge. And just how many subs does Russia put to sea everyday? Mike class sub? Was not the Kursk a mike class sub? Great technology those Russians make. And yes I'm well aware of USN sub accidents....Thresher, Scroipon, Greenville and San Francisco..Not to mention the only USN desiel sub the USS Dolphin.

I Big Daddy Popeye will never ever post anything in this forum besides pictures anymore. Enjoy the pics I post in the World armed forces pic thread!

Keep smilin'

And now I will follow the advice of one slacpiv!..This was posted in another thread in this forum

THE KRUSK WAS AN OSCAR CLASS SSGN the mike was a one of a kind

and no the sierra that struk the that struck the banton roge was one of the few the russian manage to keep in working order

I am not saying the russian subs are equal to tamericnas ones right now only that during the 80s the soviets are on equal footing

 

[coolieno99]

Re: Chinese sub thread

quote by slackpiv forwarded by popeye:

"Sea Dog. Just give up. You're in a Chinese military forum. If the people here believe that china can hit a moving target the size of vessel when no missile can do that against a static target, then let them. If they think China can launch their 200 - 300km missiles at US naval assets without being harrased by F-18S, sea wolfs, LAs, then they can. If they think that they can launch missiles without over the horizon reconaissance, then they can. If they dont believe that the sm-3, sm-3, ESSM, sea ram, or the phalanx can intercept their missiles when they number in the hundreds in a US carrier group, let them. If they think the only thing to stealth technology is an airframe and paint, let them. If they thin the 093 is more powerful than anything the Russians have to offer when every other soures days it's in the same class as the victor III, let them. If they think the J-10 is more capable than a su-27 when most sources say it's on the same level as a f-16 blk 30, let them. If they think China can catch up in engine, radar, and avionics technology in less than a decade to match the f-22 let them. If they think cheap labor can get them cheap advanced fighters, let them. If they think that they can take on 4+ US carriers at once, let them. If they think they have the same level of missile saturation ability as the soviets did in the hieght of their power let them. I've given up. "

1. During WW 2 , the British proclaimed the Japanese will never sink a British warship. After the Japanese sunk the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse off of Singapore with very little effort, anything is possible.:coffee:

2. The U.S. proclaimed it will defeat little Vietnam in 90 days. After 10 years of fighting, Vietnam defeated the U.S. military, anything is possible.:coffee:

3. After China successfully sent a manned spacecraft(Shenzhou 5) to outer space, anything is possible.:coffee:

 

[Deleted member 675]

Re: Chinese sub thread

1. During WW 2 , the British proclaimed the Japanese will never sink a British warship. After the Japanese sunk the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse off of Singapore with very little effort, anything is possible.:coffee:

2. The U.S. proclaimed it will defeat little Vietnam in 90 days. After 10 years of fighting, Vietnam defeated the U.S. military, anything is possible.:coffee:

3. After China successfully sent a manned spacecraft(Shenzhou 5) to outer space, anything is possible.:coffee:

ff

Coolie, those are terrible examples.

1. The battleships had no escorts - are the Americans saying the Chinese couldn't sink an unprotected carrier?

2. That involved a land war.

3. That had nothing to do with war at all.

Get back on topic and don't make pointless comparisons.

 

[Sea Dog]

Re: Chinese sub thread

THE KRUSK WAS AN OSCAR CLASS SSGN the mike was a one of a kind

and no the sierra that struk the that struck the banton roge was one of the few the russian manage to keep in working order

I am not saying the russian subs are equal to tamericnas ones right now only that during the 80s the soviets are on equal footing

Yep. The Kursk was an Oscar class SSGN before it's unfortunate accident. The Mike is no longer in service because it sank.

During the 1980's, the Soviets made great strides in submarine technology but never quite caught up to U.S. submarines in terms of quieting and sonar systems. Does Walker spy ring sound familiar? And the Soviets did not have any torpedoes comparable to the Mark48 ADCAP Mark 4. The UGST came out after the Cold War ended and there are very few of them. And not much is known about them.

I, like Popeye served in the U.S. military. I was in for 12 years(2 as an enlisted guy and 10 as an officer after college) and embarked aboard 1 destroyer and 1 command ship during two major deployments in the 1990's. I have sat in and given similar briefs. Popeye knows of what he speaks. Russians have never been able to build and sustain submarines to the quality of America's or Britian's nuke boats. It's not only the mounts and other quieting measures, but it takes a significant amount of money and technological know-how to keep them running in that shape. I like Russian subs and am very impressed with the way Akula's have turned out. They seem to be the only OPFOR nuke boats out there that are currently on at least the same level as Western examples. Akula II boats have been reported to be quieter than 688(I) at very low speeds only. 688(I) is still quieter at any tactical running speed however. But even then, 688(I) report better sensors also. And America's sailors get higher quality training and tons more time at sea.

1. During WW 2 , the British proclaimed the Japanese will never sink a British warship. After the Japanese sunk the HMS Prince of Wales and HMS Repulse off of Singapore with very little effort, anything is possible.

2. The U.S. proclaimed it will defeat little Vietnam in 90 days. After 10 years of fighting, Vietnam defeated the U.S. military, anything is possible.

3. After China successfully sent a manned spacecraft(Shenzhou 5) to outer space, anything is possible.

1. I agree with you on point one. It's one thing to have confidence, but overconfidence can be deadly.

2. Vietnam did not defeat the U.S. military. The U.S. defeated itself.

3. I congratulate China on her space success and wish her well. China deserves praise for the ambition. But the Americans and Soviets did these same type of space missions back in the early 1960's. Nearly 50 years ago. Russians built great space stations and the USA has walked on the moon. BTW, there's nothing stopping Japan, India, Europe from doing the same if they want. They have access to the same type of technology. Europe could have launched people into space in the early 1970's and Japan in the 1980's if they wanted. Both chose to hitch a ride instead and save money. So I don't see this as something miraculous. But at the same time, it's cool anytime someone gets launched into space regardless of who does it.

 

[Gollevainen]

Re: Chinese sub thread

Ok, now folks, back to the topic and quit the useless US vs. China penis contest. Chinese kids, dont get nationalistic berzerks when some one serving in US military says something facts and former US military men, dont deliberatly agitate chinese kids to country-bashing. This game goes on both ways so as adults, you will take the bigger blame of the responsipility if things get worser. Chinese military isent unbeatable and capaple of marvels from pure national spirit and this goes for US as well....pehaps US forces are bigger and most modern but not superior to compared to China so there isent need for going on emotional over these comon day facts so cut out the BS and focus on Chinese subs!!