Chinese submarines thread

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swimmerXC

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Re: Chinese sub thread

what do we have here...
sub314060zm.jpg

Looks familiar? well does this remind you anything
yuan211067jj.jpg

719 made the Yuan
惊天猛图文:张云川视察武汉719 所 展现神秘核潜艇模型
2006-03-13 03:56:37 点击:2839
惊天猛图文:张云川视察武汉719 所 展现神秘核潜艇模型

千龙 2006-03-13

  世界各海军强国的专家认为,新一代攻击核潜艇的设计潮流是水滴流线造型,这样可以降低水声噪音。

  近日,国防科工委主任张云川、副主任金壮龙在中船重工党组书记、总经理李长印,副总经理张必贻、吴强、邵开文,湖北省省长罗清泉、副省长任世茂等陪同下,分别视察了中船重工集团公司驻武汉和重庆地区部分单位。

  12月15日,张云川先后前往七O一所、七一九所和武昌造船厂视察。张云川听取了各单位的工作汇报,察看了科研生产设施和生产试验现场,详细了解了相关产品的研制生产情况。张云川对各单位在“十五”期间高质量圆满完成科研生产任务给予了高度评价,对各单位在科研生产、改革脱困、产业发展和人才队伍建设等方面取得的成绩给予了充分肯定。他要求各单位认真贯彻落实党的十六届五中全会、中央经济工作会议精神,牢固树立和落实科学发展观,抓住国防科技工业新的发展机遇,认真抓好“十一五”规划的制定和落实,提高自主创新能力,为国防建设和经济发展作出新的贡献。

  张云川在视察中指出,“十一五”期间,中船重工及各成员单位要在总结“十五”发展经验的基础上,抓住机遇,乘势而上,不断创新,保质保量圆满完成科研生产任务,实现新的更大的发展。要进一步增强自主创新能力,努力提高研发设计水平,突破一些关键技术,不断提高核心竞争力,缩小与世界先进水平之间的差距。要加强基础设施建设,完善硬件配置,不断提高科研生产能力和水平。要进一步加强人才队伍建设,培养和造就一支能打硬仗、善打恶仗的科技人才队伍。同时要将企业自主发展和区域经济发展融合起来,在科研生产、产品开发、技术服务、资本运营等方面更好地融入地方经济发展,为国防科技工业发展和振兴地方经济再立新功。
12月14~16日,金壮龙率领考察调研组,先后到重庆公司及重庆前卫仪表厂、重庆华渝电气仪表总厂、重庆清平机械厂、重庆液压机电有限公司、重庆红江机械厂、重庆跃进机械厂、江津增压器厂、重庆齿轮箱有限责任公司等单位,就生产任务完成情况及重点产品交货情况、企业改革发展稳定、企业文化建设以及“十一五”规划编制等情况进行了专题调研。

  金壮龙对重庆船舶企业广大员工弘扬三线军工精神,艰苦奋斗,在困境中求生存,实现企业快速发展所取得的成绩给予充分肯定。他同时要求各单位认真贯彻落实“军民结合,寓军于民”的方针,时刻把军工生产作为第一要务。要在保质保量完成好军品生产任务的同时,大力搞好民品开发,进一步做强做大民品产业。要对重庆船舶工业的发展进行科学规划,使之成为国家重要的船舶配套生产基地之一。要继续在企业文化建设上下功夫,创建重庆地区独具特色的企业文化,凝聚人心、鼓舞士气。要注意培养与吸引人才,培植企业发展的源动力。要在提高企业经济效益的同时,努力改善和提高职工物质文化生活质量,切实做好安全生产、企业稳定、产品质量等方面的工作。

附注:719 所在招收博士、硕士学位研究生的概况介绍 WMF

  武汉第二船舶设计研究所(719所),隶属于中国船舶重工集团公司,组建于60年代,是以舰船总体研究、设计为主,兼顾民用开发的多学科、多专业的大型总体研究所。拥有中国工程院院士、总设计师、研究员、高级工程师等专业的技术人员700多人。是武汉东湖开发区光谷主要科技力量之一。719所科研设计任务饱满,经费充足,科研任务多属“十五”预研和技术攻关的研发项目。

  武汉第二船舶设计研究所非常注重人才的发展和培养,每年选送科研骨干继续深造,攻读硕士和博士学位。我们与美、英、法、俄、德、荷兰等国有多种形式的技术合作与文化交流,并推荐公派出国留学攻读硕士、博士学位和出国进修。

  719所经国务院学位委员会批准,与哈尔滨工程大学联合建立了“核能科学与工程”专业博士学位授权点,可以招收该专业的博士生。同时经国家批准,招收“船舶与海洋结构物设计制造”专业硕士生。
  719所位于湖北省武汉市交通要道,所内生活环境优美,科研工作环境优越,已连续三年被湖北省授予优秀先进文明单位。
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New sub plan or is that some part of the other sub
 

tphuang

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Re: Chinese sub thread

I'm not sure, what you meant by the new sub question, anyhow the following is a huge rumour, probably not true, but something to think about

basically speculates that wuhan shipyard has received order for a new submarine (most likely conventional) and this is supposed to be different from anything we've seen so far? I guess it's not talking about Yuan anymore? Or maybe an upgrade of Yuan. Anyhow, the rest of this just spends a lot of time boasting about the capabilities of Wuhan's submarine building industry.
今日最猛消息:武船又接一条最新独立型号新型潜艇定单

[原创]武船又接一条最新独立型号新型潜艇定单

2006-03-13 作者:海外驻军_smith

  多的我不能说, 再多我也不知道了!

  只是想告诉大家,武汉人做事风风火火,绝对不是像某朋友评论的那么吊儿郎当!

  大家可以试想一下。 如果武船真的这么差劲,那为什么所有型号的首艇,所有型号的改进型首艇都要在武汉下水,而不是在可爱的JN?!

  如果说武船是最近才这么差劲的,那么为094服务的最新型号实验潜艇还这么死缠烂打的拖在武汉呢?! (漏嘴了,该打)

  实力说明一切!

  如果JN的潜艇研制和制造能力那么神话~ 请041以后的研究重任交给您咯。 以后也别从武船拉技术骨干去JN辅导041的工作。

  再泄一个:

  大家看看041下水多长时间了? 海军要签X条艇,JN挣着要,可以~ 海军大笔一签,给了几条…… 时间过了几年,到现在~ 武汉已经同时开工几条咯。JN才逐渐走出摸索中…… 然后就是偶说的前面的事情了……

  最后,以下几点请大家注意:

  JN有他的强处,比如设备和制造军舰的经验。这些是他们的优势。尤其在部分设备上…… 因为前面说了,因为他们造军舰。 而武汉最大的就是072III……

  但提醒一下大家,052系列,051部分系列的设计图纸可以从武汉701所发过去的……

  而武汉还同时拥有709、712、717、719、722 ,共6家船舶设计研究所。有的重点攻潜艇;有的重点攻核;有的攻电子;而更有的是全能型的……

  好了~ 不明不白的说了一些。如果不能相信,那千万别质问我。因为我也无力,无心去证明我所说的话都是事实。
 

tphuang

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Re: Chinese sub thread

a sub article by Richard Fisher. Nothing really new here. Again, a lot of the nuclear sub info are speculation. It's still a nice article to read though. Also, I'm not sure the 12 to 14 sub count for Song includes the 3 that was said to be under construction or not.
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Trouble below
China’s submarines pose regional, strategic challenges
By Richard D. Fisher Jr.
For the first time since the end of the Cold War, the United States faces a resurgent submarine challenge from a state that is seeking to challenge American pre-eminence in Asia, and likely beyond. China is making a large-scale investment in the building up and sustaining of its submarine force, along with impressive investments in submarine weapons, surface warship, combat aircraft and space assets to complement its submarine force. Since the early World War II Battle of the Atlantic, when Germany’s relatively small SSK fleet nearly knocked the U.S. out of the war, the U.S. has never let its strategic interests be so threatened by a foreign submarine fleet.
The submarine pre-eminence enjoyed by the U.S. today requires continued investment in both weapons and personnel, especially given China’s determined buildup.

China is building up its People’s Liberation Army Navy (PLAN) not only to achieve regional military dominance in Asia, but also to give Beijing increasing options for the global exercise of military power. For the remainder of this decade, the most important element of the PLAN’s buildup will be its nuclear and conventional submarines.
It is noteworthy that current PLAN Commander Adm. Zhang Dingfa is a nuclear submariner. Until the growth of carrier aviation in the next decade, submarines will remain at the core of China’s developing naval doctrines, which serve to achieve the strategic objectives of the state.
Through the 1990s, which saw the formation of doctrinal and industrial advances that are now propelling the transformation of the PLAN’s submarine force, that force remained wedded to largely defensive naval doctrines and operations in coastal areas. The operational focus that was developed during the 1990s, and which will remain during the medium term, is to prepare for possible conflict to subdue Taiwan, and along with that, prevent the U.S. Navy from defending Taiwan if there is a decision to attack. Initially, the PLAN’s goal is to join nuclear submarines (SSNs) and conventional submarines (SSKs) with ships and new aircraft, all equipped with new missiles, to operate in conjunction with PLA Air Force and even new 2nd Artillery ballistic missile forces, to attack enemy ships and their bases. This has led to the development of new classes of submarines and their weapons but has also propelled the PLAN to exploit new information technologies under the doctrinal goal of “informationalization.” In addition, with the launching of the PLAN’s first second-generation nuclear ballistic missile submarine (SSBN) in June 2004, the submarine force will quickly assume nuclear deterrent and attack missions.
FLEET GROWTH
Of particular concern to the U.S. and its allies is the speed of the PLAN buildup of new modern nuclear and conventional submarines. The PLA Navy submarine force started this decade with about 70 conventional and nuclear submarines and is likely to end the decade with roughly the same number. What is changing is the number of first- and second-generation Type 033 Romeo and Type 035 Mings, which are being replaced in the active force at a nearly 1-for-1 rate by third- and third-plus-generation submarines. According to U.S. government sources, from 2002 to mid-2005 the PLA Navy built 14 submarines. These included the first Type 094 Jin second-generation SSBN, two Type 093 Shang SSNs, the first Yuan-class SSK and 10 Type 039A Song SSKs. In 2006, the PLA Navy is expected to launch its third Shang and will finish taking delivery of eight Russian Kilo 636M SSKs. If this rate is sustained, China could produce and purchase about 40 new submarines this decade.
This acquisition surge follows a substantial investment in submarine development, production and logistic support capability. Nuclear submarine production facilities in Huludao were modernized in the late 1990s to enable the series production of both SSNs and SSBNs that is now underway. In 2003, China started building its new Type 039A Song-class submarines at a second conventional submarine yard at the Jiangshan shipyards Shanghai, while the traditional yard at Wuhan started construction of the new Yuan-class SSK in addition to the Song. For its 2002 order of eight new Kilo 636M submarines, China invested in the revival of two additional Russian submarine yards to accelerate delivery. Foreign sources also note that the PLAN is building up to five “new” submarine bases, though PLA sources note some of these new facilities are expansions of current bases. New foreign technologies, to include modern welding robots from Russia and computer-aided design systems from Europe, have been critical to the success of China’s submarine production expansion. There has also been a vigorous exchange in dual-use fuel cell technology between German and Chinese engineers, with many of the latter coming from PLAN institutes.
U.S. sources point to substantial cooperation between Russia and China. The Type 093 has often been described as having performance similar to the Project 671 (Victor III) SSN, and Russia has provided particular assistance to China’s naval nuclear propulsion development. In recent years, however, as the prospect of European competition has loomed, Russia has relaxed previous limits on the level of military technology sold to China, and it stands to reason that Russia may be selling China ever more modern nuclear and conventional submarine technologies. In a 2004 unclassified publication, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) projected that the Type 094 SSBN would have a submarine-launched ballistic- missile (SLBM) “farm” that is strikingly similar to that projected for the Russian fourth-generation Project 955 Borei SSBN. This raises the possibility that some Russian fourth-generation submarine technologies are also migrating to China.
NUCLEAR WAR-FIGHTING GROWTH
In June 2004, the PLA launched its first second-generation Type 094 Jin class SSBN. In contrast to the long-gestating and troubled Type 092 Xia-class, the Type 094 is expected to constitute China’s first reliable nuclear second-strike force within the next year or two. In the mid-1990s, reports emerged that Russia’s Rubin Bureau was assisting China’s nuclear submarine effort. It is curious that Rubin is the lead designer for the new Project 955 SSBN, an upgraded version of the Project 667BDRM (Delta IV). ONI has adjusted its projection for the Type 094 from 16 JL-2 SLBMs to 12, the same number as projected for the Project 955. It is variously estimated that China will build four to six new SSBNs.
The buildup and basing of China’s second-generation SSBN force will also create strategic pressures for the United States, its friends and its allies. In early 2005, the PLA deployed a Type 091 Han class nuclear attack submarine to its South Sea Fleet base at Yulin, on the southern end of Hainan Island. Some Asian military officials believe that in 2006 the PLAN will begin operations at a new nuclear-submarine base beside Yulin that will become a new base for PLAN SSBNs and SSNs. This base was constructed to give near-immediate access to waters for deep water patrols, which is not possible in the shallow Bohai Gulf, the current base area for the solitary Type 092. But to hit targets in the United States with their new 5,000-plus-nautical-mile-range JL-2 SLBMs, these SSBNs will have to travel between the Philippines and Taiwan. This will mean that the PLAN’s focus of operations will shift to the south to support SSBN access, requiring that additional ship and aircraft resources be deployed south.
NUCLEAR ATTACK SUBMARINES
Following a lengthy development program that started in the 1970s, the PLA launched its first second-generation nuclear attack submarine in December 2002. A second was launched in late 2003, with a third under construction, and the first was expected to enter service in 2005. Designated the Shang class by the U.S. Navy and known as the Type 093 in the PLA Navy, it is widely believed to constitute a major technological advance over the first-generation Type 091 Han class SSN. The 2003 Pentagon report on the PLA noted, “The Type 093-class will compare to the technology of the Russian Victor III SSN and will carry wire-guided and wake-homing torpedoes, as well as cruise missiles.” However, the only known picture of the Type 093 shows its sail is a consistent development from the Type 091: thin, with diving planes in the U.S. fashion. If the Type 093 were to approach the acoustic performance of the Project 671RTM (Victor III), it would be superior to early SSN 688 Los Angeles class SSNs. Though not as good as the latest SSN 21 Seawolf and SSN 774 Virginia, the Type 093 would constitute a remarkable advance over the widely acknowledged poor acoustic performance of the Type 091.
Barring conjecture that the Type 093 may incorporate unknown elements of Russian fourth-generation nuclear submarines that may further improve its acoustic and combat performance, it can be expected that the PLA will aggressively pursue improvements for the Type 093 or even rapidly develop follow-on classes in the next decade. China can be expected to develop or seek Russian assistance with new large spherical sonar arrays, quieting technologies, propulsors, advanced underwater communications, vertical launch tubes for cruise missiles, and canted torpedo tubes. It is also likely that China will seek to follow the U.S. example and incorporate unmanned underwater vehicles and energy weapons on to its new SSNs.
To replace its more numerous and less sophisticated Type 033- and 035-class conventional attack submarines, the PLA is taking delivery of three new SSK types. The U.S. Navy was reported to have been surprised by the launching of a new type of Chinese SSK at the Wuhan yard in July 2004. Dubbed the Yuan class by the U.S. Navy, it has since been in testing at the Northern Fleet submarine development complex at Qingdao. While the Chinese have released virtually no data on this submarine, many Internet source photos confirm its broad similarity to the new Rubin-class Project 667 Lada/Amur-class SSK, although the Yuan may be similar in size to the larger Kilo. The Yuan exhibits modern anechoic tiling, and the “step” deck that Rubin has used to develop vertical cruise missile launch tubes aft the sail for future versions of the Lada. If, as suspected, there has been substantial Russian input, it would be safe to project that the Yuan also incorporates advanced quieting technologies and better automated combat-and-control systems, and, in the future (if not already) will incorporate new Russian or Chinese-designed air-independent propulsion systems.
Russia already has made a substantial contribution to the PLAN’s new submarine capabilities through the sale of 12 Rubin-designed Kilo class SSKs. The first two Project 877EM export models introduced the PLAN to modern SSK technology and led the PLA to order two of the more capable Kilo 636 model. Following initial challenges absorbing these ships, most are now stationed with the East Sea Fleet nearest Taiwan. The latest batch of eight new Kilo 636M submarines appears to be divided between the East Sea Fleet and the South Sea Fleet.
In addition to improvements in quieting and automation, the Kilo 636M also features the Novator Club-S series of three missiles. These include the 220-kilometer-range 3M-54E anti-ship cruise missile, which uses a unique supersonic second stage to defeat close-in weapon system defenses. The 91RE1 fires a purpose-designed lightweight torpedo out to a maximum range of 50 kilometers. And the 3M-14E is a 300-kilometer-range subsonic terrain-following land-attack cruise missile. Russian sources have told the author that China has purchased all three of these missiles for its new Kilos. Also, the Kilos allowed the PLAN to have access to other modern Russian submarine weapons to include their latest homing and wake-homing torpedoes, and new mobile mines. In late 2003, there were Russian press reports of the nation considering selling China the rights to co-produce up to 20 Kilos, a prospect that seems less likely should the Yuan prove successful. However, it cannot be discounted that China may order more Russian-built Kilos, having already invested in substantial production expansion.
The 2002 order for the Kilo is often linked to problems that China had with its Type 039 Song SSK, but its protracted development issues of the 1990s were largely solved by the time the latest Kilo contract was signed. According to a European submarine industry source, the Type 039’s problems stemmed from the inability of Israeli consultants to meld disparate foreign technologies. By 2005, however, an estimated 12 to 14 Songs had been launched, with reports noting that at least three more are under construction. And the decision to expand production of this submarine to a second shipyard constitutes a vote of confidence in its design. Since 2004, the PLA has marketed the Type 039, and Pakistan could emerge as an early customer for this type.
Roughly similar in size and appearance to the French Agosta-class SSK, the Type 039 or 039A Song is a clear improvement over the Type 035 Ming, in turn a development of the 1950s Russian Romeo design. The Song uses an Agosta-style sail with diving planes, and Chinese TV coverage shows it makes ample use of digital command-and-control systems, indicating some degree of automation. Internet source photos of Song construction in Shanghai also show it employs sophisticated two-level anechoic covering. The Song is also armed with a sub-launched version of the 40-kilometer-range YJ-81 anti-ship missile, in addition to Chinese-made torpedoes.
While the numbers of Type 033 Romeo and Type 035 Ming SSKs may be declining in the active force, it is possible that many will be retained for training or combat reserve missions. As part of its still-relevant “People’s War” doctrines, the PLA is averse to simply discarding weapons that still work, regardless of whether they are obsolete. Some PLAN writers have identified missions for these older submarines to include laying mines, transporting special forces and acting as decoys to expose more capable, but less numerous, U.S. submarines.
REACHING OUT
PLAN submarines typically have not been deployed far from their bases. While there have been rumors for some time of aggressive movements by PLAN submarines during the March 1996 confrontation over Taiwan, the most visible PLA use of its submarines occurred in November 2004. Destroyers and P-3 Orion anti-submarine warfare aircraft of the Japanese Maritime Self Defense Force tracked Han-class SSN No. 405 for several hours as it briefly clipped Japanese territorial waters. No. 405 was on its way back from circumnavigating Guam, and apparently had been tracked by the U.S. Navy since it left its Northern Fleet base at Qingdao. Such sorties, designed to test U.S. and Japanese reactions, are likely to become more frequent as the number of new PLAN submarines continues to grow.
In addition, as the focus of its nuclear second-strike capability moves south, it can be expected that Beijing will become more belligerent regarding its territorial claims in the South China Sea. After three decades of a hot-cold military-diplomatic campaign to seize and build up small island bases in the South China Sea, Beijing is now in a lull period. But as it builds up its strategic nuclear presence in Hainan, China will be tempted to undertake military operations to capture Taiwan’s island holdings at Itu Aba, the Pratas, and possibly as far as the Peng Hu Islands in the middle of the Taiwan Strait in order to ensure no opposing force can use them to prosecute PLAN SSBNs. China may demonstrate high sensitivity to future U.S. and Japanese naval activities in this region, increasing the chances of naval incidents. The April 2001 EP-3 incident offers just a foretaste of the PLA’s resistance should the U.S. move to shadow and contain Hainan-based SSBNs.
Also, before the end of the decade, new Type 093 SSNs are likely to be able to carry out small-scale but politically powerful power-projection missions for the Chinese leadership. This will follow from the expectation that the Type 093 SSN will be the only PLA platform that can carry a version of the PLA’s new land-attack cruise missile (LACM) to the world’s littoral areas. These LACMs are expected to have a range of 1,000 kilometers to 2,000 kilometers and to be cued and guided by an initial space constellation of imaging and communication, expected to be in place by the end of the decade. It is not inconceivable that by early in the next decade China could be using these LACMs to intervene in distant countries to favor political factions loyal to Beijing.
China’s commitment to increasing both the numbers and the capabilities of its submarine forces comes at a time of increasing fiscal constraint for the U.S. Navy’s submarine and anti-submarine forces. It has long been reported that budgetary pressures could have dire consequences should U.S. SSN production decline to less than one per year, with SSN numbers seen as falling to between 30 and 40 by the end of the next decade. This would clearly be unacceptable given the global strategic commitments supported by the U.S. submarine fleet and the expected rapid rise in PLAN submarine numbers. Should there be a conflict in which the U.S. would choose to defend Taiwan from Chinese attack, Washington simply may not have sufficient submarines to hold the line long enough. Despite projections of continuing U.S. technical superiority, the nation simply may not be able to withstand a superior number of China’s Russian-influenced third- or third-plus-generation submarines.
Other Asian democracies will face pressures from China’s submarines. The PLA’s 2002 order for eight more upgraded Kilo 636M SSKs sought to match the U.S. 2001 commitment to sell Taiwan eight SSKs. The PLA will have its new submarines by 2006, whereas, because of politics in Taipei, it remains undecided whether or when Taiwan will receive theirs. In addition, barring a significant increase in defense spending, Japan is expected to sustain its fleet of 15 to 16 SSKs. Though modern, and manned by highly professional crews, Japan’s submarine fleet would be overwhelmed by the PLAN’s sub fleet in the event of a Sino-Japanese war, such as a conflict over resource claims in the East China Sea.
 

AssassinsMace

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Re: Chinese sub thread

You forgot to paste the disclaimer in the end:

"Paid for by General Dynamics and the Electric Boat Company"
 

bd popeye

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Re: Chinese sub thread

PLAN submarines typically have not been deployed far from their bases.

Personally I doubt that the PLAN subs spend even one third the time at sea the USN does with it's subs. I also have doubts about how well the PLAN sub crews are trained. The whole PLAN in fact. I do. I have stated this before and I will stand by it.

One thing that will be always in question about the PLAN subs is technical advances. We PLAN fans and China watchers can do no more than speculate about the technological advances of the PLAN.

The USN constantly publizes it advances. Like this new sensors already installed on it's subs. ""According to the US Navy, a single(new1) A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined"" Read the article. Does the PLAN have anything to counter this sensor or something in R & D????:confused:

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A-RCI is a sonar system upgrade installed on the USA's entire submarine fleet, including SSN-688 Los Angeles & SSN-688I Improved Los Angeles Class, SSN-21 Seawolf Class, SSN-744 Virginia Class, SSBN-726 Ohio Class nuclear missile boats, and the pending SSGN Tactical Trident special ops and strike subs.

By sharply upgrading ship sensor processing, it integrates and improves the boat's towed array, hull array and sphere array sonars, running more advanced algorithms and providing a fuller "picture" of the surrounding environment. Sometimes, it really is all about what you can do with it.

DID adds a bit more explanation of exactly what A-RCI entails and where its benefits were focused; then we'll go on to cover contracts placed under the A-RCI program in 2006.

A-RCI: Specifics & Benefits

The Acoustic - Rapid Commercial off-the-shelf Insertion (A-RCI) AN/BQQ-10(V) Sonar System was actually initiated as Engineering Change 1000 to the AN/BSY-1 Combat System on SSN-688I improved Los Angeles Class submarines. The concept doesn't replace the existing AN/BSY-1, AN/BQQ-5, and AN/BQQ-6 sensors - instead, it replaces central processors with modernized COTS personal computer technology and software installed in an open architecture. A-RCI efforts include interfaces to the legacy systems; signal processing enhancements; display enhancements; and incorporation of Government Furnished Information (GFI) algorithms.

According to GlobalSecurity.org, these improvements provide expanded capabilities, particularly in littoral waters, for covert intelligence collection and surveillance, and covert insertion and support of Special Forces. This is especially apropos for both the SSGN Tactical Trident special operations subs and the Virginia class, which also has special forces insertion capabilities. Expanded capabilities for anti-submarine warfare were focused on diesel-electric submarines, covert mining, and covert strike of targets ashore. Again, covery strile of targets ashore is also a prominent part of the SSGN and Virginia Class' missions.

Submarines with improved sensors, of course, like the new SSN-21 Seawolf and SSN-744 Virginia Class boats, will realize even greater benefits from having more computing power available in a more easily-upgradeable architecture.

SSN Seawolf ClassMoore's Law matters - according to the US Navy, a single A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined, and allows the development and use of complex algorithms previously beyond the reach of legacy processors. Specific software improvements included passive ranging, spatial vernier processing, full spectrum processing, dual towed array concurrent processing, low frequency active interference rejection, passive broadband, passive narrowband and passive detection and tracking processing, track management, on-board training, and port/starboard ambiguity resolution.

A-RCI's open architecture confers other advantages as well, notably the capacity for faster, more economical, and more frequent hardware and/or software upgrades. The program expanded to provide improvements that could be back-fit into all nuclear attack (SSN) and ballistic missile (SSBN) submarines, totaling over 60 ship sets. The system is now known formally as the AN/BQQ-10 (V) Sonar, and has gone through four phases.
 

darth sidious

Banned Idiot
Re: Chinese sub thread

bd popeye said:
Personally I doubt that the PLAN subs spend even one third the time at sea the USN does with it's subs. I also have doubts about how well the PLAN sub crews are trained. The whole PLAN in fact. I do. I have stated this before and I will stand by it.

One thing that will be always in question about the PLAN subs is technical advances. We PLAN fans and China watchers can do no more than speculate about the technological advances of the PLAN.

The USN constantly publizes it advances. Like this new sensors already installed on it's subs. ""According to the US Navy, a single(new1) A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined"" Read the article. Does the PLAN have anything to counter this sensor or something in R & D????:confused:

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A-RCI is a sonar system upgrade installed on the USA's entire submarine fleet, including SSN-688 Los Angeles & SSN-688I Improved Los Angeles Class, SSN-21 Seawolf Class, SSN-744 Virginia Class, SSBN-726 Ohio Class nuclear missile boats, and the pending SSGN Tactical Trident special ops and strike subs.

By sharply upgrading ship sensor processing, it integrates and improves the boat's towed array, hull array and sphere array sonars, running more advanced algorithms and providing a fuller "picture" of the surrounding environment. Sometimes, it really is all about what you can do with it.

DID adds a bit more explanation of exactly what A-RCI entails and where its benefits were focused; then we'll go on to cover contracts placed under the A-RCI program in 2006.

A-RCI: Specifics & Benefits

The Acoustic - Rapid Commercial off-the-shelf Insertion (A-RCI) AN/BQQ-10(V) Sonar System was actually initiated as Engineering Change 1000 to the AN/BSY-1 Combat System on SSN-688I improved Los Angeles Class submarines. The concept doesn't replace the existing AN/BSY-1, AN/BQQ-5, and AN/BQQ-6 sensors - instead, it replaces central processors with modernized COTS personal computer technology and software installed in an open architecture. A-RCI efforts include interfaces to the legacy systems; signal processing enhancements; display enhancements; and incorporation of Government Furnished Information (GFI) algorithms.

According to GlobalSecurity.org, these improvements provide expanded capabilities, particularly in littoral waters, for covert intelligence collection and surveillance, and covert insertion and support of Special Forces. This is especially apropos for both the SSGN Tactical Trident special operations subs and the Virginia class, which also has special forces insertion capabilities. Expanded capabilities for anti-submarine warfare were focused on diesel-electric submarines, covert mining, and covert strike of targets ashore. Again, covery strile of targets ashore is also a prominent part of the SSGN and Virginia Class' missions.

Submarines with improved sensors, of course, like the new SSN-21 Seawolf and SSN-744 Virginia Class boats, will realize even greater benefits from having more computing power available in a more easily-upgradeable architecture.

SSN Seawolf ClassMoore's Law matters - according to the US Navy, a single A-RCI Multi-Purpose Processor (MPP) has as much computing power as the entire legacy Los Angeles Class (SSN-688/688I) submarine fleet combined, and allows the development and use of complex algorithms previously beyond the reach of legacy processors. Specific software improvements included passive ranging, spatial vernier processing, full spectrum processing, dual towed array concurrent processing, low frequency active interference rejection, passive broadband, passive narrowband and passive detection and tracking processing, track management, on-board training, and port/starboard ambiguity resolution.

A-RCI's open architecture confers other advantages as well, notably the capacity for faster, more economical, and more frequent hardware and/or software upgrades. The program expanded to provide improvements that could be back-fit into all nuclear attack (SSN) and ballistic missile (SSBN) submarines, totaling over 60 ship sets. The system is now known formally as the AN/BQQ-10 (V) Sonar, and has gone through four phases.

well even during war time only 1/3 of the sub fleet in at sea so all the talk about PLAN have 10 songs at sea on patrol is probely BS
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Re: Chinese sub thread

bd popeye said:
Personally I doubt that the PLAN subs spend even one third the time at sea the USN does with it's subs. I also have doubts about how well the PLAN sub crews are trained. The whole PLAN in fact. I do. I have stated this before and I will stand by it.

One thing that will be always in question about the PLAN subs is technical advances. We PLAN fans and China watchers can do no more than speculate about the technological advances of the PLAN.
I think that once they retire some of the 033s, they can use them as training ships, so maybe that will give them better training. But in general, what's hurting sub training is what's hurting all the other trainings. They don't really train with any high level opponents. I mean com'on, if you are training against Chinese ASW all day, you would feel pretty good about yourself too, right? As for technical advances, Gary on defencetalk often say that the Yuan and Song subs are using French sonar and support systems. I guess you can get a rough idea of the capabilities based on that. Also, it seems like China is doing this incremental development system, so that's where you get upgraded performance vs previous designs even inside that particular class of subs.
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: Chinese sub thread

I mean com'on, if you are training against Chinese ASW all day, you would feel pretty good about yourself too, right?

Ouch! That hurt the feelings of PLAN fans. But that's the truth...and it hurts. They need more naval excersise with the Russians or any other nation willing to participate. That would be real training.

No one still has given me any idea how much time the PLAN spends at sea with it's subs or other vessels training or on patrol. I really would like to know. that way I can better gauge their training.
 

FreeAsia2000

Junior Member
Re: Chinese sub thread

I don't know as much about this area as popeye however I recently
came across this interesting article regarding Chinese capabilities.

The PLAN will soon deploy the first successor to its noisy and unreliable first-generation nuclear submarines. The new Type 93 SSN will augment the obsolete Han class, the last of which was commissioned in 1990. Though Chinese nuclear submarines are widely dismissed as obsolete, the Chinese press continues to extol sorties by these SSNs, even claiming that they played a role in the 1996 Taiwan Strait crisis.9 Open sources state that the Type 93 will have an indigenously manufactured nuclear reactor and be technologically similar to the Russian Victor III, possessing enhanced sonar capabilities and advanced quieting.10 The first prototype is nearly finished and a bow-on photograph of the vessel in drydock suggests that the ship has both upper and lower bow sonar assemblies, as well as flank arrays. A recent Chinese source, however, claims that the Type 93 will have 65-cm tubes, which suggests it will be able to carry Russia's largest wake-homing torpedo designed specifically to destroy aircraft carriers.11

China's second-generation ballistic-missile nuclear submarine (SSBN) lags behind the SSN program. Known as the Type 94, it eventually will replace the 20-year-old, problem-plagued prototype of the Xia class, which itself recently emerged from a major overhaul. Chinese sources assess that the Type 94 aims to have a quieter acoustic signature than the Russian Typhoon, and will deploy with 16 8,000-km-range submarine-launched ballistic missiles, each equipped with three to six warheads.12 It is likely that the first of the Type 94 SSBNs will not be launched for at least five years, perhaps longer. Despite this delay, the amount of space dedicated to SSBNs in China's journal of naval warfare, Jianchuan Zhishi, implies that the PLAN's determination to develop a functional SSBN force remains strong. Taken as a whole, Chinese efforts in nuclear submarines suggest a measured commitment to the development of a blue-water capability over the longer term.

Personnel, Training, and R&D

Despite an overall reduction in personnel, the PLAN is building communities of intellectual excellence, including the submarine force. China recognizes that pay incentives help attract qualified specialists in a competitive labor market, and in recent years have initiated generous pay increases. Some ranks saw a salary increase of 100% in 1999-2000. Like their U.S. counterparts, the PLAN reportedly gives priority to "outstanding student cadres whom are willing to volunteer for submarine service."13 Chinese military leaders have identified a severe deficiency in developing competent noncommissioned officers. Apparently, a policy to redress this problem is producing a new cadre of specialists for undersea warfare.14 Capping this off, the PLA is putting the finishing touches on a rigorous system of professional military education, including an initiative that replicates the U.S. Reserve Officer Training Corps program. The new system is so similar to the United States that a recent profile of one Chinese submarine force admiral's resume reads similarly to a U.S. counterpart's: Admiral Zhang Xizhao completed two tours at the Qingdao Submarine Academy, and one each at the Nanjing Naval Command and Staff College and at the PLA's National Defense University in Beijing.15

Even more significant, the PLAN appears to be implementing a training revolution. As good students of U.S. military operations, Chinese commanders have become increasingly conscious of the imperative for joint planning and operations.16 For example, the PLAN recently implemented an innovative program of "cross training" surface and submarine commanders.17 Another striking facet of their effort to upgrade training is a shift from rote, repetitive drills to "confrontational" training, which allows for greater exercise free play. As with joint operations, this notion appears to be an effort to imitate successful U.S. practices. Competitive, realistic war games also are becoming standard in the fleet and within the submarine force.18

Analysts generally agree that after the Taiwan Strait crisis the PLA focused on the United States as its most likely future adversary. Training with U.S. capabilities in mind has enabled its submarine force to incorporate substantial innovations into its exercises. Working under the assumption that its bases would be damaged early in a conflict, for example, the PLAN recently conducted a drill in which torpedoes were loaded onto a submarine at a small civilian port employing mobile cranes and other special equipment.19 Another drill focused on clearing disabled ships from a vital navigation channel,20 and a logistics exercise featured practice in disguising important targets and conducting rush repairs.21 In addition, "seaborne supply" operations have been conducted with the newest submarines.22

Beijing's commitment to undersea warfare over the long term depends on developing an outstanding science and technology research system that will sustain the fleet's development. The outlines of such a system are beginning to appear. The PLAN leadership has selected Wuhan and Harbin Universities as sites of maritime engineering excellence. The former, which opened officially in 1999, combines the Navy Engineering and Navy Electronics Academies. The curriculum is focused on "tackling the key problem of fusing and joining electronic information to weapons systems."23 The latter has colleges of nuclear propulsion and underwater engineering. Recent research achievements of Harbin University for the PLAN include technology for ocean-bottom topographic mapping and a dual-use submersible for mine detection and deep-ocean salvage.24 Chinese researchers also are working on lasers for submarine detection, and remote seabed hydrophone systems. These efforts are complemented by espionage. The director of the acoustic noise laboratory at Russia's Pacific Oceanography Institute is now on trial in Vladivostok for allegedly trying to smuggle secrets to the Chinese.

Nevertheless, it would be a mistake to assume that China's future undersea warfare technology prospects are dependent on Russian expertise. Many U.S. analysts fall into the trap of extrapolating from the PLAN's historical evolution, underestimating the impact of "systemic shocks" such as the Korean War or the Cultural Revolution to that development. It is a serious error, therefore, to predict future developments within the Chinese submarine force based on historical development examples such as that of the Han SSN, which underwent sea trials 16 years after its approval by Chinese leadership.25

Taiwan and the Blockade Scenario

Analysts generally agree that an invasion of Taiwan will remain beyond the reach of the PLA for at least the next decade. Notwithstanding the steady upgrading of the PLA Air Force, the revamping of Chinese special forces, and the fielding of a vast array of short-range missiles, a critical shortage of modern amphibious landing craft makes a full-scale invasion unlikely. The PLAN's near-term focus on diesel submarines, however, is one of several indicators suggesting that Beijing's preferred coercive tool against Taiwan would be a naval blockade.

As an island with few resources, Taiwan may be vulnerable to this form of coercion. The volatility of Taipei's stock market during previous cross-strait crises suggests that Taiwan's economy could face a meltdown if confronted with determined efforts to subvert it. Compounding this problem, it is likely that the mainland could exploit Taiwan's internal political fissures during a crisis. In other words, speedy capitulation is conceivable if Beijing confronts Taipei with a sophisticated strategy of sticks and carrots.

Chinese diesel submarines would be the decisive force in this troubling scenario. With its older submarines employed as minelayers and decoys, the more modern submarines could patrol north, south, and east of the island. Even a very few ship sinkings would prompt insurance brokers to revoke their coverage of merchant shipping, and commerce at Taiwan's two biggest ports, Taipei and Kaoshiung, would grind to a halt. Taiwan might try to break the blockade on its own, but its chance of success would be low. Its otherwise formidable air force might fall victim to missile strikes, but even without such strikes, Taiwan's aircraft are not well suited for antisubmarine warfare (ASW) operations. Reportedly, only 6 of their 26 S-2T Tracker ASW aircraft, which have been flying since the late 1950s, are operational.26 Taiwan's current budget crunch casts doubt on the hoped-for purchase of 12 P-3C Orions from the United States, potentially forcing continued dependence on the unreliable S-2Ts through 2008. The imminent delivery of four Kidd (DD-661)-class destroyers will not help either, because the root of Taiwan's ASW woes is an inadequate number of overall platforms for the mission.

There has been much talk of expanding Taiwan's fleet of four diesel submarines, two of which date from World War II. But Taiwan's prospective purchase of eight diesel submarines from the United States is plagued by obstacles. First, it is far from clear that diesel submarines are optimal for the ASW mission. Second, the United States no longer builds diesel submarines, and those U.S. allies that do, such as Germany, are hesitant to jeopardize their relations with Beijing. Third, the PLAN expects to take delivery of eight more Kilos between 2005 and 2007 and might have a system for accelerated crew training given its large force of submarines. By contrast, the earliest Taiwan could receive eight new submarines would be 2010. Moreover, crew training is expected to be a major bottleneck, suggesting some additional years before the vessels are truly operational. This time lag, even under assumptions that favor Taiwan, will bring an even more substantial capability gap later in this decade. Finally, with the Taiwan defense budget at an eight-year low, the possibility of Taiwan making a $4-5 billion commitment for submarines seems remote.27 Thus, it is unlikely that Taiwan will be able to cope with a blockade imposed by the PLAN in the foreseeable future.

The United States could break the blockade, but the growing capability of the PLAN submarine force will increase the risk to U.S. maritime forces, especially as U.S. antisubmarine warfare capabilities have withered since the end of the Cold War. Alternatively, U.S. SSNs could conduct a campaign against Chinese submarines, especially in the deep waters to the east of the island where the bigger, more sophisticated U.S. submarines could make full use of their superior technology. Even the U.S. submarine force must expect losses, however, given improvements in Chinese submarine platforms, training, weaponry, and the sheer weight of numbers.

Evolving Submarine Doctrine

Previously, PLAN doctrine did not task China's submarines with an ASW role. This is changing, and the development of submarine ASW tactics appears to be a priority.28 PLAN submarine captains recognize that active pinging is tantamount to suicide and are shifting their focus to improving the performance of passive sonars, including towed arrays.29 Chinese submarines increasingly are equipped with digital sonar systems that make extensive use of commercial off-the-shelf computer processing technology.30 Multiple references in Chinese technical journals demonstrate a keen interest in sound surveillance system technology,31 and China's military analysts also are studying sonar countermeasures.32 In addition, Chinese sources openly describe using certain submarines as "bait."33 Relying on this tactic, it is conceivable that U.S. submarines could reveal their presence to lurking Kilos by executing attacks against nuisance Ming-class vessels.

Despite increasing attention to antisubmarine warfare, PLAN writings leave little doubt that destruction of U.S. aircraft carrier battle groups remains the focal point of doctrinal development, and Chinese submarines might be the greatest threat. Chinese planners estimate, "[T]here is no way [for U.S. carriers] to evade . . . reconnaissance and tracking,"34 and in the Russian tradition believe that a carrier battle group can be destroyed with multiwave and multivector saturation attacks with up to "100 antiship cruise missiles from all launch platforms in a single attack."35

The same analysis describes Russia's Cold War-era anticarrier forces in great detail and concludes: "This is Russia's asymmetrical and economical answer to the threat of U.S. aircraft carriers. In the Russian armed forces, no other force could surely fight this threat except submarines."36 Chinese planners also have duly noted that during World War II, 17 aircraft carriers were sunk by submarines.37

Conclusion

China is not the first land power to challenge a maritime nation's sea supremacy by investing disproportionately in submarines. Whether China will succeed where Germany and the Soviet Union failed is one of the greatest questions of maritime strategy for the 21st century.

The Authors:

Dr. Goldstein is associate professor of strategic studies at the U.S. Naval War College. An expert on Chinese security policy, he has studied in both China and Russia. Lieutenant Commander Murray is a military research fellow at the U.S. Naval War College's Strategic Research Department. He served tours on two fast-attack submarines and served as action officer in the operations directorate at U.S. Strategic Command.

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I don't understand what he means when he says that USSR failed in it's maritime strategy and Germany was of course hostage to a madman
 
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