Chinese Soft Power and Media Discussion and Updates

Deleted member 23272 · May 15, 2023

@tonyget I don't really get what you're saying man, your whole premise that Chinese people love vacationing in Thailand because Thai dramas have given Chinese people an envy and inferiority complex for everything Thai? Um no. Chinese love to vacation in Thailand because its cheap, it has nice weather, nice beaches, and awesome food. Millions of Americans visit Mexico every year for those same reasons, is there a crisis in America of Whites having inferiority complexes to Mexico?

azn_cyniq said:
In the United States, some Korean dramas and songs become popular once in a while, but frankly they don't hold a candle to English-language entertainment.

This is an important point, overstating the soft power than some countries wield in the world. Everyone said that after Parasite won best picture, Korea was going to eat Hollywood's lunch. Except most of the highest grossing movies in the Korean box office these past two years have been American films or Japanese animes.

Really when it comes to media it should be said, Japan and South Korea have their cult followings, and occasional breakout hits, America though perhaps moreso than any other field is still the undisputed hegemon, why is that? And likewise, what can China do? People say that because of censorship or because of a lack of good script writers, Chinese can't compete globally in entertainment. Those factors undoubtedly contribute to the problem. But more to the point......

azn_cyniq said:
The vast majority of people in the world prefer to be entertained by people who either look like them or speak the same language as them.

Yes, everyone likes to say American media has wide appeal because of the wide appeal of American values. But that's not the case. Millions of Chinese go gaga for Game of Thrones, but your average Chinese I'm sure would fall asleep getting through an episode of Succession or The Wire. What is considered strong writing and character development by one culture may not necessarily carry over to another one, especially if they can't relate to the struggles the protagonists are facing. So yes, lack of good script writers is not the issue here and America's success is not built on being able to write better scripts than the rest of the world either, don't believe me? I'll throw out this example.

Cineasts and movie fans always wonder how the hell James Cameron still keeps making so much money even if he can't write scripts for shit. But that's James Cameron's genius, he keeps the stories and diaologue simple, while the real star of films works its magic. And no, its not even the special effects in his movies, although that is a big part no doubt. It's the worlds he builds. Pandora and the recreating the world of the Titanic, are his original visions, and why people regardless of cultural background swarm to his movies. Because see, cultural backgrounds will decide what on screen struggles relate to, but no matter your cultural background, everyone can relate going to the movies to escape. This is one area where everyone can admit the Anglosphere has been exceptionally proficient at. Creating worlds like Hogwarts, MCU, Middle-Earth, a Galaxy Far Away, and Disneyfication of fairytales, have captivated millions regardless of cultural background and allowed them to forget life's troubles.

China with its resources can certainly eventually get to the production quality of American movies, but people say censorship and crap scripts will hold it back. To that I say, those issues will be set by the wayside, if China can produce dreamers who can conjure up worlds people want to live in the same way they do Pandora or Hogwarts. Japan and South Korea have had partial success in this field, but haven't reached Hollywood's hegemony yet for reasons I will go into later since this post is already long. China maybe one day can achieve that level of success too, I don't when but that's what the industry has to do in my opinion.

Diaspora · May 16, 2023

From daily news thread :

manqiangrexue said:
I feel very strongly about this and we can debate better in the Soft Power Thread that this is no soft power. I have written extensively on this in that thread to absolutely no coherent counter-argument. Those who covet "soft power" are generally confused about what was intended to constitute "soft power" and what is actually an extension of hard power. For China's "soft power" to rise, it really only needs to futher develop its hard power until it is ahead of America's. Trying purposefully to build "soft power" from a position of inferior hard power is simply a fool's errand, begging others to like you when their hands are tied to your stronger rival.

Furthermore, the competition for influence is highly skewed towards the US as it is for a multitude of factors, none of which can be addressed by any charm offensive or push by China. Firstly, the USD is American power in a maritime world; American sanctions are what will bite if you support China's rise instead of American tyranny. To dismantle this, the yuan needs to be a viable alternative to the dollar and it is in clear progress. Secondly, hard power gives you the stage to spread your views, which people tend to think is soft power. But few understand that the stage is more important than your message. The message is not clever; it is simply to support us instead of them, but the stage that amplifies your message is built through hard power and that alone. If your stage is lesser than America's stage, your voice will be drowned out. As long as American hard power reigns supreme, they can threaten sanctions to force your target to simply shut you up and close your stage down. China addresses this by growing its hard power. Lastly, America has, through the last few decades since WWII, used its power to build deep channels of corruption and connections in every important (and many unimportant) country's political systems, channels that it can simply call upon to spread its influence when needed. China doesn't have that and it while it is making huge inroads in some places, others are more uncertain. Oftentimes, obvious progress cannot be made until Chinese hard power has displaced American hard power.

As one of the major proponents of soft power, I'm going to agree with this. It cannot be argued with. Hard power is in many ways, stronger and more important than soft power. For instance, no matter how much soft power a small country like Singapore, Korea or Thailand (just randomly naming small countries) has, it can never beat the influence that China has. In fact, the recognition that a country has the ability to become a world power or super power is already a ton of soft power in itself. When people recognize that you have hard power, you automatically gain soft power as well. China has a large and capable army, navy, air force, a giant population, huge land and resources, a large economy that can sustain without foreign intervention. These are all factors that grant both hard power and soft power that smaller countries might never be able to acquire. It also has a long and deep history, a culture that has developed extensively and independently for centuries and its own language system that has developed extensively over centuries. These are all also mega factors that grant China a lot of soft power that smaller countries cannot acquire easily.

At the same time, I also agree with ACuriousPLAfan who said :

ACuriousPLAFan said:
Funny how I still recall some months ago - That a few here in this forum claimed that "soft power is of absolutely no use in the geopolitical fight between superpowers".

The thing is - Not a lot of people outside of the military circle talk about military stuff everyday. But there are fvck tons of people everywhere who talking movies, dramas, songs and games. Every. Single. Day.

I believe I need to knock this sentence onto this forum wall for everyone here to actually make sense and understand.

While China is now equipped with the capability to militarily go toe-to-toe with the US in her own front yard (i.e. WestPac), yet China is nowhere near the US when it comes to soft power influence and control projection.

Besides, soft power isn't just about building bridges, schools, airports and hospitals. It is about connecting, managing, and even controlling the minds & hearts of the targeted audience & population.

Just this one simple question is enough: "How often do Chinese people talk about American movies? Meanwhile, how often do American people talk about Chinese movies?"

TL;DR - China needs to do A WHOLE LOT MORE if she intends to stand toe-to-toe with the US (and her allies with far-reaching soft power prowess, i.e. South Korea and Japan) in the soft power battlefield.

I don't think that that hard power and soft power are mutually exclusive.
While it is true that soft power does depend on hard power, I feel that since China has enough hard power to be viewed as a threat by other powers, then it is time to develop soft power more extensively as well.

If I were to make an analogy :
Imagine that 2 people walk into a town. The guy with a gun has hard power. If either 1 of the 2 guys did not bring a gun, the guy with the gun will always win, because he can shoot the guy without a gun, or just point it at him and threaten him. So hard power wins.
However, if both guys have a gun, the guy who is charming and talks well has an advantage. He doesn't have to use his gun. He can approach the towns people, make better deals and secure a better position for himself. He can persuade the towns people that the other guy is a threat, and that they should gang up on him. All the non-charming guy can do is say "Wow those other guys are weak. They don't have a gun. They aren't a threat to me". But it always feels bad going 1 against 5 even if you are strong enough to do it. Eventually you might get worn out and tired. So you always want to be the one with everyone on your side.

As for actual events where I feel soft power played a deciding difference :
I would name the current semi-conductor blockage against China as an example. This blockage is mainly being done by soft power. So many countries were convinced against their own economic interest to destroy the interests of their own semi conductor companies to enforce a blockage against China.

Furthermore, hard power is difficult to use. You don't really want to use it if you can avoid having to use it. In terms of the hard power of countries, using a gun (from my analogy above) is like waging a war. Russia is currently using their hard power on Ukraine. But even if they win, it is really costly.

Soft power is something that very strong countries can use everyday with very little cost to themselves. The example once again, is asking other countries to do a semi-conductor blockade on China. It costs the USA very little to ask other countries to do this. The other countries are actually the ones bearing the costs but the USA is the one exerting the soft power. Even if there are costs, I would argue it is not as much costs as an actual war for example.

manqiangrexue · May 16, 2023

Diaspora said:
I don't think that that hard power and soft power are mutually exclusive.
While it is true that soft power does depend on hard power, I feel that since China has enough hard power to be viewed as a threat by other powers, then it is time to develop soft power more extensively as well.

There is no development of "soft power" until hard power has eclipsed your rival because before then, he can drown you out, by virtue of a louder voice and by action of ordering other countries to help mute you in their territories, which they cannot refuse because they fear his hard power.

Diaspora said:
If I were to make an analogy :
Imagine that 2 people walk into a town. The guy with a gun has hard power. If either 1 of the 2 guys did not bring a gun, the guy with the gun will always win, because he can shoot the guy without a gun, or just point it at him and threaten him. So hard power wins.
However, if both guys have a gun, the guy who is charming and talks well has an advantage. He doesn't have to use his gun. He can approach the towns people, make better deals and secure a better position for himself. He can persuade the towns people that the other guy is a threat, and that they should gang up on him. All the non-charming guy can do is say "Wow those other guys are weak. They don't have a gun. They aren't a threat to me". But it always feels bad going 1 against 5 even if you are strong enough to do it. Eventually you might get worn out and tired. So you always want to be the one with everyone on your side.

But the world is not like this. The world is more like a rally between these 2 men with guns. The one who builds the bigger stage and who can offer the best deals will be the one who is heard over the other in most of the cases. Here, one can even order people to listen to him and not his rival by threat of his gun and his wallet. When he already has everyone in his pocket from decades of domination, the other guy fights an almost impossible uphill battle to be heard over him and to convince the townspeople. Here, the only course of action is the build a bigger stage than him, bring out more and bigger guns than him, scare him silent, then tell the townsmen that you are the one to listen to now if they want a good future. They must get off his carrot and stick and get on yours. All hard power.

Diaspora said:
As for actual events where I feel soft power played a deciding difference :
I would name the current semi-conductor blockage against China as an example. This blockage is mainly being done by soft power. So many countries were convinced against their own economic interest to destroy the interests of their own semi conductor companies to enforce a blockage against China.

That event is most definitely hard power. ASML and the Netherlands did not wish to do such a thing, but US coercion made it such that it would be even more against their economic interests to make an enemy out of America. They did not voluntarily give up their share in the Chinese market for love of America; they did it to avoid America's wrath. ASML's CEO/President used the word, "surrender" to describe how they have crumpled in the face of American pressure. This is American hard power.

Diaspora said:
Furthermore, hard power is difficult to use. You don't really want to use it if you can avoid having to use it. In terms of the hard power of countries, using a gun (from my analogy above) is like waging a war. Russia is currently using their hard power on Ukraine. But even if they win, it is really costly.

You are equating hard power to violence. That is a common mistake and not the case. Actually, anytime a country used the carrot and stick approach to diplomacy, that is the use of hard power as only hard power can afford the carrot or wield the stick. Without it, you speak only empty words that fall on deaf ears.

Diaspora said:
Soft power is something that very strong countries can use everyday with very little cost to themselves. The example once again, is asking other countries to do a semi-conductor blockade on China. It costs the USA very little to ask other countries to do this. The other countries are actually the ones bearing the costs but the USA is the one exerting the soft power. Even if there are costs, I would argue it is not as much costs as an actual war for example.

Once again, that is not soft power. Conflating that with soft power is erroneously believing a mob boss' orders are soft power. They are actually hard power because thugs believe that by following them, they will be rewarded but by opposing them, they will be severely punished. These European countries dared not oppose America on semiconductors and they dared not oppose America on Huawei.

If a different country, such as Haiti or Egypt without any hard power said the exact same words as the Americans did to the Europeans, they would have been laughed out of the room and business as usual would commence with China. That is how you know that this is American hard power, not soft.

tonyget · May 16, 2023

FairAndUnbiased said:
One interesting thing about luxury goods: France and Italy have very weak entertainment sectors. Even after banning English language media to some degree, they still can't escape the gravity of US entertainment . Top box office in France and Italy is all Hollywood.

So I'd say that French and Italian luxury products don't represent their own soft power at all. They get Hollywood and news agencies advertising for them. It's a concession by US for them, not anything they did on their own. If CNN started demonizing LV and Prada as ripoffs made by enslaved Africans, could France or Italy keep them alive? No. They'd be crushed.

French and Italian can sell luxury products which costs 10 dollars to make at 1000 dollars，but you cannot. That's a classic example how soft power translate into real benefits

manqiangrexue · May 16, 2023

tonyget said:
French and Italian can sell luxury products which costs 10 dollars to make at 1000 dollars，but you cannot. That's a classic example how soft power translate into real benefits

You were talking about illiteracy yesterday? LOL Well, I'll just quote myself and hope that after a couple of times, your literacy kicks in:

Chinese Soft Power and Media Discussion and Updates

Soft power comes from hard power, not the other way around. In order for a country's entertainment industry to become popular abroad, it must have a domestic market large enough to support it. The purchasing power of the Chinese middle class has increased drastically in recent years, and the...

www.sinodefenceforum.com

"Companies and celebrities need to be liked because the relationship that defines them is one of seller to patron. The major relationship that countries are defined by is one of partnership or rival. So your analogy is broken like your literacy. A more proper analogy would be boxers caring, or definitely NOT caring if their rival boxers in the ring "like" them. Or if we were to use your analogy, we can ask, do Burger King and MacDonald or Sams Club and Costco care if they like each other? Do Khabib and MacGregor care they they like each other?"

So it's not France and Italy; it's LV and Gucci, etc... They are businesses, not countries.

FairAndUnbiased · May 16, 2023

tonyget said:
French and Italian can sell luxury products which costs 10 dollars to make at 1000 dollars，but you cannot. That's a classic example how soft power translate into real benefits

How is it French or Italian soft power that enables this?

Name 1 French or Italian movie, TV show or video game? You can't, because French and Italian don't even watch their own movies or play their own video games.

Is it soft power from themselves or from the US?

FairAndUnbiased · May 16, 2023

Diaspora said:
From daily news thread :

As one of the major proponents of soft power, I'm going to agree with this. It cannot be argued with. Hard power is in many ways, stronger and more important than soft power. For instance, no matter how much soft power a small country like Singapore, Korea or Thailand (just randomly naming small countries) has, it can never beat the influence that China has. In fact, the recognition that a country has the ability to become a world power or super power is already a ton of soft power in itself. When people recognize that you have hard power, you automatically gain soft power as well. China has a large and capable army, navy, air force, a giant population, huge land and resources, a large economy that can sustain without foreign intervention. These are all factors that grant both hard power and soft power that smaller countries might never be able to acquire. It also has a long and deep history, a culture that has developed extensively and independently for centuries and its own language system that has developed extensively over centuries. These are all also mega factors that grant China a lot of soft power that smaller countries cannot acquire easily.

At the same time, I also agree with ACuriousPLAfan who said :

I don't think that that hard power and soft power are mutually exclusive.
While it is true that soft power does depend on hard power, I feel that since China has enough hard power to be viewed as a threat by other powers, then it is time to develop soft power more extensively as well.

If I were to make an analogy :
Imagine that 2 people walk into a town. The guy with a gun has hard power. If either 1 of the 2 guys did not bring a gun, the guy with the gun will always win, because he can shoot the guy without a gun, or just point it at him and threaten him. So hard power wins.
However, if both guys have a gun, the guy who is charming and talks well has an advantage. He doesn't have to use his gun. He can approach the towns people, make better deals and secure a better position for himself. He can persuade the towns people that the other guy is a threat, and that they should gang up on him. All the non-charming guy can do is say "Wow those other guys are weak. They don't have a gun. They aren't a threat to me". But it always feels bad going 1 against 5 even if you are strong enough to do it. Eventually you might get worn out and tired. So you always want to be the one with everyone on your side.

As for actual events where I feel soft power played a deciding difference :
I would name the current semi-conductor blockage against China as an example. This blockage is mainly being done by soft power. So many countries were convinced against their own economic interest to destroy the interests of their own semi conductor companies to enforce a blockage against China.

Furthermore, hard power is difficult to use. You don't really want to use it if you can avoid having to use it. In terms of the hard power of countries, using a gun (from my analogy above) is like waging a war. Russia is currently using their hard power on Ukraine. But even if they win, it is really costly.

Soft power is something that very strong countries can use everyday with very little cost to themselves. The example once again, is asking other countries to do a semi-conductor blockade on China. It costs the USA very little to ask other countries to do this. The other countries are actually the ones bearing the costs but the USA is the one exerting the soft power. Even if there are costs, I would argue it is not as much costs as an actual war for example.

US did not ask or convince other countries to ban Huawei or semiconductor equipment exports. It ordered them. big difference.

The threat of sanctions worked on them and didn't work on China.

The negotiation was one of degree, not one of kind. There was no question they'd agree at the end, only in how much they'd agree.

Deleted member 23272 · May 16, 2023

Diaspora said:
So many countries were convinced against their own economic interest to destroy the interests of their own semi conductor companies to enforce a blockage against China.

Uh, really? Let me ask what do you think is more likely.

Thank a bunch of greedy CEOs who are only loyal to their company's balance sheets sat down in a room with Biden and his team, and listened to an impassioned speech about the need to defend democracy in a rapidly declining geopolitical situation. Suddenly, hearts of stone that never hesitate to sack workers even when on parental leave, gave way to sentiment as everyone's minds immediately were filled with memories of all those rousing speeches in American movies of the power of liberalism and democracy, set against a rousing John William's soundtrack. Suddenly everyone got up and applauded, newly unified in their efforts to accept a little financial pain to cut off their biggest market.

Or, that America simply told these CEOs get with the program or else.

I don't know about you, but I lean towards the latter. Whether you intrepret that to be hard or soft power, entirely up to you.

tonyget · May 16, 2023

manqiangrexue said:
Don't worry about art illiteracy; you need to worry about your actual illiteracy. My examples clearly pointed out how different people react to seeing the same thing and you mistook it to mean that some people don't see it while others do... illiteracy.

So quick to retract to personal attack mode，running out of argument？

manqiangrexue said:
Companies and celebrities need to be liked because the relationship that defines them is one of seller to patron. The major relationship that countries are defined by is one of partnership or rival. So your analogy is broken like your literacy. A more proper analogy would be boxers caring, or definitely NOT caring if their rival boxers in the ring "like" them. Or if we were to use your analogy, we can ask, do Burger King and MacDonald or Sams Club and Costco care if they like each other? Do Khabib and MacGregor care they they like each other?

Companies and celebrities trade with the public, countries trade with each other. There is no difference. Your analogy that the relationship between countries is like boxing is funny，because even Khabib and MacGregor cares about PR，did you know that？

manqiangrexue said:
You doubt wrong. It is impossible to not respect or admire Mongols or anyone in a society where they dominate over you. It doesn't mean that you don't have aspirations to overcome them, as people dream of besting their idols all the time, but strength demands respect.

Even at the height of Mongols/Huns/Germanic tribes etc，they were viewed as barbarians. No one inspired to study or adopt their political system/culture，no one respect or admire the mongol way of life.

manqiangrexue said:
LOLOL Only stupid people are influenced by "cool cartoons and dramas." Those people cannot even separate real life from fiction. Nobody listens to them. When they talk, strong-minded people tell them to shut up and sit down and they do it because they have no power to resist anything they see. "He just bossed me around! He's just like Senpai in the cartoon! Respect!" LOL Those people will never amount to anything in any country.

"Nobody listens to them"，because you say so？

manqiangrexue said:
By being cute cuddly little dogs to the Western order. China is a wolf that challenges Western domination. Japan and Korea submit to it. People like those that submit to them, not those who challenge them. How can this be difficult for you to understand?

But also, like I said, Japanese and Koreans have very good etiquette while Chinese are known to be poorly behaved on vacation, which is what the CCP wants to fix. Unfortunately, they used "soft power" and confused the less intelligent people.

Firstly，being US puppet do not automatically grant you culture influence，The US has more puppet than Japan and Korea，yet only Japan and Korea succeed in softpower. Secondly，you think Japanese and Korea culture products only have foothold in the West？You'd be shocked to find out how popular they are in developing countries，such as middle east/central asia/south east asia etc. Even in anti-west places like Russia/Iran/China，they are still popular.

manqiangrexue said:
Proverbs don't mean anything if you cannot apply them correctly. A guy was handing out energy drinks from a new company; I took one, drank it, forgot what company it is, and never looked for it again. How expensive was that to me? Proverb broken. Use your own words to argue.

How do you like free cocaine，lots of people love it.

manqiangrexue said:
If people aren't buying your merch because they suck, then you need to make better things. But again, if a country isn't buying your things because of market distortion on their side, then you put tariffs or non-tariff barriers to stop their things from being bought by your people. That is economic hard power. There is no "like", so that part is finished... again. Desperate begging salesmen trying "soft power" for unattractive products don't make sales; strong confident salesmen with a competitive product that the consumers need will make sales. All hard power.

For a comparable consumer product，the one with softpower can sell it at much higher price than those who doesn't have softpower

manqiangrexue said:
It's literally a statistic you can Google if you want to but you missed the main point. The point is that you conflated visiting a country to worship, while in fact, it's actually just a thing that people with disposable income do. Chinese people visit Korea, Thailand, Japan, Vietnam, and Americans visit Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, etc... nobody in their right mind has any worship; it's just a vacation. I don't worship the hotels I stay at or the restaurants I eat at; but it seems to be a very difficult concept for sheep-mentality people.

Pilgrims will always visit their sacred place. Kpop fans visit Korea，Thai drama fans visit Thailand，the same way muslims visit Mecca

manqiangrexue said:
Right... so you cannot point to tourism numbers in Korea to indicate Chinese worship because you cannot conflate tourism to worship. This is you kicking your own ass this time. And if you do conflate them, I will point out that China is the second most visited country in the world after the US. You have nowhere to go in an argument that China has poor "soft power."

LOL So which way do you want to play it? Tourism = worship meaning Chinese culture is worshipped or Tourism =/= worship, in which case your whole pont is moot? Or........ were you hoping to use a double standard and say that Chinese culture is not worshipped because toursim isn't worship but Korean culture is because there, tourism is worship? LOL
It's pretty bad that you didn't see this logical pit you dug yourself into while you were writing this...

So which way do you want to play it？Die = cancer meaning there is only one way to die，or Die =/= cancer in which case your whole pont is moot?

tygyg1111 · May 16, 2023

tonyget said:
French and Italian can sell luxury products which costs 10 dollars to make at 1000 dollars，but you cannot. That's a classic example how soft power translate into real benefits

It stems from the reputation of the companies selling these rather than the countries they originated from.

Chinese Soft Power and Media Discussion and Updates

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