Chinese shipbuilding industry

jackliu said:

Is there any reason why China is not producing 9000+ ton displacement destroyer/cruisers?

052C and 052C will all be somewhere around 7000 ton. Do they have problems with the engines which prevent them from producing bigger ships?

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Systems are not ready until in the past few years to allow production of 9000+ ton ships. Designing a ship takes years so what we see today (052D) was designed in the 2007-08 time frame. PLAN's model is producing one generation, develop one generation, and research one generation, which means right now a 9000t destroyer is under detailed engineering design if not already finished, while a Zumwalt class ship is being researched.

Engine was one problem designers had five years ago but it's no longer an issue with the introduction of the QC185 and QC280, right now there are no technological hurdles to prevent the PLAN from acquiring large displacement destroyers. Economic or political reason is another matter.

hmmwv said:

Systems are not ready until in the past few years to allow production of 9000+ ton ships. Designing a ship takes years so what we see today (052D) was designed in the 2007-08 time frame. PLAN's model is producing one generation, develop one generation, and research one generation, which means right now a 9000t destroyer is under detailed engineering design if not already finished, while a Zumwalt class ship is being researched.

Engine was one problem designers had five years ago but it's no longer an issue with the introduction of the QC185 and QC280, right now there are no technological hurdles to prevent the PLAN from acquiring large displacement destroyers. Economic or political reason is another matter.

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Hmm is a zumwalt weight ship going by the fact that we expect PLAN to follow USN fleet orbat (only 3 zumwalts will be built anyway)/personal belief or that there is actually technology for a 15k ton monster being researched somewhere in china?

Personally I think a 10-11k ton destroyer/cruiser along the lines of sejong, but with some of the technologies pioneered by zumwalt/daring such as integrated mast and low visibility sensors while integrating the new gun, VLS, radar (maybe add an X band AESA to complement it) should be the most economical choice while also delivering capability necessary for defending future CVBGs.

4 QC280s should give enough power (and then some) for such a ship, going by the likes of sejong and ticonderoga who are only each equipped with LM2500s (which are not even the newest iteration).


I suppose the question is, if 052D is the generation currently being "produced", then what is the next generation being "developed" (e.g.: something we may see in a couple of years in form of 055?) going to look like? And we can't exactly use foreign naval DDG developments as a guide either, because 052D sits a bit lighter than burkes in terms of weight but in terms of the weapons and sensor suite it can be expected to carry it should be similar if not superior in a few aspects.

As far as engines are concerned you would traditionally put two or four engines in a twin screw vessel. But when you use gas turbine/electric propulsion three and five gas turbines are also possible. That is likely a serious option for the next Chinese major combattants.

Bltizo said:

I suppose the question is, if 052D is the generation currently being "produced", then what is the next generation being "developed" (e.g.: something we may see in a couple of years in form of 055?) going to look like? And we can't exactly use foreign naval DDG developments as a guide either, because 052D sits a bit lighter than burkes in terms of weight but in terms of the weapons and sensor suite it can be expected to carry it should be similar if not superior in a few aspects.

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Various resources points to the fact that the next gen 9000t DDG will not be all electric so strictly speaking it will be a 052E with "sci-fi looking" hull, then the true 12000t will be the true all electric full stealth dual band PAR direct energy weapon packing monster. Whether the designation will be 055 is unknown since that designation was already used, so maybe 057 or 058 depends on the progress of the gas turbine frigate project. Having said that, they can very well revive that project number since the original never went into production.

hmmwv said:

Various resources points to the fact that the next gen 9000t DDG will not be all electric so strictly speaking it will be a 052E with "sci-fi looking" hull, then the true 12000t will be the true all electric full stealth dual band PAR direct energy weapon packing monster. Whether the designation will be 055 is unknown since that designation was already used, so maybe 057 or 058 depends on the progress of the gas turbine frigate project. Having said that, they can very well revive that project number since the original never went into production.

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Ah I see.

Well that's quite interesting, because the two most widely disseminated "projected fleet orbats" over the year or so both made mention of something in the weight class of a the "cruiser" showing its face in three or four years and then the "destroyer" following it (so 055/58/59 and "052E" respectively).

If the next generation destroyer is really going to be less advanced than the cruiser it makes me wonder if these projections we've been getting have got them reversed, or, if they are accurate, then PLAN may only be seeking to make the shields of their fleet fully groundbreaking (all electric, DEW, full stealth etc) while their mainstay destroyer fleet will merely world class (more conventional propulsion, no exotic weapon systems, moderately stealthy).

And then there's the question again of when the cruiser will show up; both the fleet projections make it sound like the first will be complete 2016ish. While that's not an impossible date for a sino-zumwalt to show up, it does seem very ambitious taking into account 052D and "052E" will be produced continuously alongside it. Time will tell I suppose.

Yeah it's a very fluid situation, even at the end of last year we are hearing that the next DDG will be all electric to warrant a new type designation, but this year an article surfaced points to the fact that all electric will have to wait. This combines with 001A shows PLAN is really taking a cautious approach to new technologies and decisions can change any time, the good thing is that there is always enough information leaked that we will hear about it only months after those changes.

Re: U.S. Navy Take Notice: China is Becoming a World-Class Military Shipbuilder



By Gabe Collins and Andrew Erickson

China’s military shipyards now are surpassing Western European, Japanese, and Korean military shipbuilders in terms of both the types and numbers of ships they can build. If Beijing prioritizes progress, China’s military shipbuilding technical capabilities can likely become as good as Russia’s are now by 2020 and will near current U.S. shipbuilding technical proficiency levels by 2030.

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Eight key themes, listed sequentially below, characterize China’s rise as a world-class military shipbuilder:

1. China’s warship buildout thus far supports modernization and replacement, not rapid expansion
2. Chinese military shipbuilders are catching up to Russian and U.S. Yards
3. China’s military shipbuilders are using modular mass production techniques
4. China’s military shipyards appear to be sharing design and production information across company lines
5. China’s military shipbuilders will be able to indigenously build aircraft carriers
6. China will retain a military shipbuilding cost advantage
7. China’s neighbors feel increasingly compelled to augment their naval forces in response to Chinese warship production
8. China now has the potential to become a significant exporter of diesel submarines and smaller surface warships

The authors speculate that the top-3 candidate yards to build China's indigenous aircraft carriers:

• CSIC Bohai Shipbuilding Heavy Industry complex near Huludao
• Changxing Island yard
• CSIC’s Dalian yard

Comments: I'm curious about what yardsticks the authors are using when they claimed China's military shipbuilding capabilities will be as good as Russia's are now by 2020, and near US's current level by 2030. Are they talking about quality and the level of technical sophistication of the major capital warships, such nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers?

HAHAHA god I thought Andrew erickson was fair...

China has already exceeded the Russians in both commercial and military shipbuilding in both quantity and quality.

Bltizo said:

HAHAHA god I thought Andrew erickson was fair...

China has already exceeded the Russians in both commercial and military shipbuilding in both quantity and quality.

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to be fair, he is just using a different measuring stick than most of us would use. In this case, he is saying that China is ahead of Europe and Japan. I certainly do think China is ahead of Russia in most shipbuilding areas, but it's still behind Europe in a lot of areas. For example, engines.

tphuang said:

to be fair, he is just using a different measuring stick than most of us would use. In this case, he is saying that China is ahead of Europe and Japan. I certainly do think China is ahead of Russia in most shipbuilding areas, but it's still behind Europe in a lot of areas. For example, engines.

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Definitely, China has a bit of catching up to do with engines (though it's getting better with the QCs finishing development).

But I don't see how he can say China is behind to Russia. The Russians are going to the French to build amphibious assault ships, they have yet to develop an aegis style AAW ship, their production rate of new frigates are slow compared to 054A... the russians are ahead in terms of nuclear submarines, for the forseeable future. I honestly don't see how he reached that conclusion, despite his measuring sticks.