Chinese semiconductor industry

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Blitzo

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I'm really starting to wonder if the Chinese leadership is serious about semiconductors
it must be one of the biggest concerns for the development of the country, and China must be ready to invest trillions of dollars if it is necessary.
I hope the US sanctions will be a wake-up call
There has been some progress but it is clearly not enough

Given US sanctions against semiconductor manufacturing only began in earnest in the last couple of years, and given previously foreign companies maintained large marketshare, isn't it a little too optimistic to believe that to expect there would not still be a significant gap?

I think that attaining a domesticated 28nm line this year with DUV, and then a 14nm line by next year, would be fairly significant advancements.
 

Blitzo

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The key line is "China-made lithography equipment has not entered wafer mass production lines"; This is a huge weakness in the whole system it's like not controlling oil production in previous generations. It's tough to solve as as they are one of three countries capable of achieving this but the progress has been slow and the ramifications are quite large... You read about advances here and there but if nothing is actually being used in mass production it's pretty bad...

Yes but that is assuming:
1. The SMIC article is up to date (from what others have written here, it doesn't sound like it).
2. "Has not entered wafer mass production lines" does not equate to "will not enter wafer mass production lines". Everyone here has known the stage in which the domestic new 28nm DUV lithography machines have been progressing, and I don't think anyone would have reasonably expected those to be used in mass production yet.


I am all for realistic projections and predictions, but it seems to me that some people are calling the game already five minutes into the first half of the match.
Given how recent US semiconductor sanctions have been, and given how relatively recent the advancements in domestic lithography and overall semiconductor production lines have been, wouldn't it only be reasonable to assess the degree of this success, like 3 or so years down the line?
 

WTAN

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Nothing to get too excited about.
The completely Localised 28nm FABS are nearing completion and will start mass production next year.
As with all things, a new production line always has issus to work out but they will get there.
So this speaker is right in saying that the SMEE 28nm Litho has not yet entered mass production Lines.
Even the Huawei CEO recently said that the Huawei FAB will begin production of 20nm/28nm in 2022 and 14nm later in the year.
Recently there were rumours that SMIC might supply Huawei with 14nm Chips next year.
There is also talk that SMIC is helping Hisilicon in trial production of its 14nm 3D Chips.
This signals that SMIC will have a fully indigenous 28nm and 14nm Production line ready in 2022.
SMIC no longer has to get US Admin approval to supply Huawei or all the other companies sanctioned by the US.
This probably explains why the Biden Admin recently decided to step up sanctions against SMIC.
Just a coincidence?
Its all to late of course as the ship has left the Harbour.
 

weig2000

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Given US sanctions against semiconductor manufacturing only began in earnest in the last couple of years, and given previously foreign companies maintained large marketshare, isn't it a little too optimistic to believe that to expect there would not still be a significant gap?

I think that attaining a domesticated 28nm line this year with DUV, and then a 14nm line by next year, would be fairly significant advancements.

This is the result of having some (Chinese) media constantly reporting breakthroughs in Chinese semiconductor industry; they spill over into this thread leading to some members' irrational exuberance and unrealistic expectations and later, disappointments set in when they find out their ever accelerating, ever moving goals are not met, or a lot of these news are simply fake ones.

Make no mistake, Chinese semiconductor industry is making rapid, unprecedented and across-the-board progress. Never before have so much capital and so many talents flooded into the industry. There are and will be inevitable delays and setbacks, but the trend is clear and unmistakable.

For those who suffer from severe anxiety syndrome, a gentle advise is to visit this thread less. Avoid behaving like a day trader.
 

gadgetcool5

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Given US sanctions against semiconductor manufacturing only began in earnest in the last couple of years, and given previously foreign companies maintained large marketshare, isn't it a little too optimistic to believe that to expect there would not still be a significant gap?

I think that attaining a domesticated 28nm line this year with DUV, and then a 14nm line by next year, would be fairly significant advancements.
There are only two weeks left in the year, so unless there is some dramatic surprise coming out of left field in the next 15 days, a domestic 28nm line this year isn't happening.

Further, even if you ignore the motivating effect of US sanctions, the fact remains that China achieved 90nm supposedly in 2016. Even in the normal course of events it should have made some progress in the last five years, yet its most advanced machine is still 90nm and even this machine, seems to have negligible sales. On this board there is a lot of (1) posting rumors and (2) boasting, and I am sure someone will reply to my comment with more rhetoric meant to puff up China and temporarily make us feel better, but the reality is, China's efforts haven't been showing any results. The US is just having a field day shooting at China with no response.

Further, the Chinese government far from supporting China's tech sector is cracking down on it and making it hard for it to raise money. Chinese tech companies have taken a bath this year much due to the Chinese government's own policies. In many ways the Chinese and US governments are both aligned and pursuing the same goals against Chinese tech (such as attacking Chinese overseas IPOs). Meanwhile the US is supporting its own tech sector massively with huge bills and all sorts of pressures. Sigh.
 

ansy1968

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Even the Huawei CEO recently said that the Huawei FAB will begin production of 20nm/28nm in 2022 and 14nm later in the year.
Recently there were rumours that SMIC might supply Huawei with 14nm Chips next year.
There is also talk that SMIC is helping Hisilicon in trial production of its 14nm 3D Chips.
This signals that SMIC will have a fully indigenous 28nm and 14nm Production line ready in 2022.

SMIC no longer has to get US Admin approval to supply Huawei or all the other companies sanctioned by the US.
This probably explains why the Biden Admin recently decided to step up sanctions against SMIC.
Just a coincidence?
Its all to late of course as the ship has left the Harbour.
@WTAN Sir the hint's are getting visible, One must connect the dot just like in PLA watching, the evidences are there, its up to us to look for it. One of those is the Official announcement from Huawei about the Return of the King in 2023, the second about the delivery of the prototype SMEE DUVL in December 2020 which correlate @Oldschool post of SMEE SSA800 DUVL doing verification work by SMIC Chengdu FAB in July this year , third about Huawei breakthrough in 14nm 3D stacking tech. These kind of progress will never be reported by the Western Media and the Chinese are tight lip except IF you can read Chinese. My concern is that the Dual Approach strategy is stymied, SMIC 7nm projected mass production date will be delayed by 2 years the most, extending the gap already existed between the 2 leaders, even IF a 7nm 3D chiplet is mass produce in 2024, by that time TSMC and Samsung 3nm is up and running.
 

Tyler

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@WTAN Sir the hint's are getting visible, One must connect the dot just like in PLA watching, the evidences are there, its up to us to look for it. One of those is the Official announcement from Huawei about the Return of the King in 2023, the second about the delivery of the prototype SMEE DUVL in December 2020 which correlate @Oldschool post of SMEE SSA800 DUVL doing verification work by SMIC Chengdu FAB in July this year , third about Huawei breakthrough in 14nm 3D stacking tech. These kind of progress will never be reported by the Western Media and the Chinese are tight lip except IF you can read Chinese. My concern is that the Dual Approach strategy is stymied, SMIC 7nm projected mass production date will be delayed by 2 years the most, extending the gap already existed between the 2 leaders, even IF a 7nm 3D chiplet is mass produce in 2024, by that time TSMC and Samsung 3nm is up and running.
Huawei 5nm is coming sooner than you think.
 

Blitzo

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There are only two weeks left in the year, so unless there is some dramatic surprise coming out of left field in the next 15 days, a domestic 28nm line this year isn't happening.

My understanding is that the domestic 28nm capable DUV machines have already been delivered to initial customers, beginning in the second half of this year.

Achieving mass production of them of course isn't going to happen immediately, and I think it is a bit of a stretch for you to argue that we should be expecting it immediately -- especially if there's a recognition that there may be delays (as with many advanced companies in general).


Further, even if you ignore the motivating effect of US sanctions, the fact remains that China achieved 90nm supposedly in 2016. Even in the normal course of events it should have made some progress in the last five years, yet its most advanced machine is still 90nm and even this machine, seems to have negligible sales. On this board there is a lot of (1) posting rumors and (2) boasting, and I am sure someone will reply to my comment with more rhetoric meant to puff up China and temporarily make us feel better, but the reality is, China's efforts haven't been showing any results. The US is just having a field day shooting at China with no response.

Wouldn't you agree that given the recency of US sanctions and the recency of Chinese efforts to produce a domestic semiconductor industry in response to US sanctions, that it is too early to say that there has not been any results?

Given the timelines of this industry and what we know about the development of equipment and the utilization of new equipment, isn't it more reasonable to wait a few years before calling it so early?
Or putting it another way, do you think it is reasonable to expect any "results" at this stage in a scale that would be reported by the likes of SCMP or mainstream English language media?



Further, the Chinese government far from supporting China's tech sector is cracking down on it and making it hard for it to raise money. Chinese tech companies have taken a bath this year much due to the Chinese government's own policies. In many ways the Chinese and US governments are both aligned and pursuing the same goals against Chinese tech (such as attacking Chinese overseas IPOs). Meanwhile the US is supporting its own tech sector massively with huge bills and all sorts of pressures. Sigh.

I think you are over-generalizing China's "crackdown" on "tech" and falsely equating the government's attitudes to companies like Tencent, Alibaba or Didi versus SMIC or SMEE, not to mention falsely equating what value those two groups of corporations provide to the overall technology industry (especially in regards to something like semiconductors).
On the contrary I would argue that China is providing massive support to China's tech sector in more productive and foundational domains, but actively deterring the unhealthy and less productive domains of the tech sector from developing in a manner that is rent seeking and societally distorting.
 
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