Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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If SMEE systems are as good as you claim, why are they not used for processes under 90nm? Some publications I've read claim that even the 90nm SMEE tool is just a prototype, useless for mass manufacturing.

Getting the wafer stage and rest of the system performance to the level where you can do double, triple or quadruple patterning is just as challenging as getting the baseline resolution right. Complex features on 7nm require more than just double patterning with DUV immersion.

As far as I know, DUV cannot do 28nm. The physical limit is 32 nm. 28nm must refer to to the process name.

It's well understood in the industry that single exposure EUV products have superior electrical features to DUV multiple exposure products. Anyone stuck on DUV, will have a hard time to competing in performance.
What publications? Dylan Patel?

What IS known is that SMEE photolithography tools already have a 40% global market share and 80% domestic market share in UV packaging lithography systems per Equal Ocean, a long time industrial consulting firm, who get paid to be right unlike Indian bloggers or neocon think tanks who are paid to score political points (or not at all).

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Packaging lithography has lower requirements than front end lithography, but the projection optics, wafer stage etc. can all be upgraded. It was the foundation upon which the 90 nm ArF dry etch system is built. If it happened that ASML was made less available then all the money that went to ASML goes to SMEE which already had a foundation and existing funding source.
 

weig2000

Captain
Rumor is TSMC's exec's are now terrified by the possibility that the US will try to drum up some charges against them and have them arrested and extradited to US from Taiwan, with the intent of forcing them to sell TSMC to a US company like Intel.

They all know that Taiwan dictator Tsai won't do jack shit to protect them from US.

Now they are already talking among themselves about possible escape plans or just a simple "surrender plan", where at 1st sign of trouble, they will offer up TSMC for sale without too much of a fight and without any one getting arrested. (so to maximize their own personal asset protections).

That would sound like a repeat of
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experience.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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Rumor is TSMC's exec's are now terrified by the possibility that the US will try to drum up some charges against them and have them arrested and extradited to US from Taiwan, with the intent of forcing them to sell TSMC to a US company like Intel.

They all know that Taiwan dictator Tsai won't do jack shit to protect them from US.

Now they are already talking among themselves about possible escape plans or just a simple "surrender plan", where at 1st sign of trouble, they will offer up TSMC for sale without too much of a fight and without any one getting arrested. (so to maximize their own personal asset protections).
Taiwan doesn't have an extradition treaty with the US though, though apparently Tsai broke Taiwanese law and imprisoned UMC executives st her master's bidding.

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nlalyst

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First of all, you said that DUV cannot go below 28nm. You're wrong; that's over. Then, you have mistaken the widely-known phenomenon that most applications use 28nm+ for clients not accepting or SMIC not delivering 14nm. It seems you have accused me of lacking substance when you have failed to grasp some well-known facts.
DUV cannot go below 28nm physical features. The 28nm that gets thrown around all the time is just a process name, as are 14nm , 7nm, etc... Nice try to dodge the fact that SMIC dropped the ball in their 14nm game.
Their strategy fails. The US should have kept Huawei hungry for foreign parts turning it into a Chinese Apple which just makes phones for profit. Instead, it caused Huawei to become a Chinese Samsung+ which aims to dominate all technological sectors upstream and downstream of simply phones. It even kidnapped the Hauwei Princess to give Chinese people more hatred and resolve! The US thought it could isolate Huawei but all Chinese companies now see the danger and there is national effort to create the world's first complete competitive IC manufacturing line in a single country. Chinese companies dont trust foreign tech anymore and any use is treated as a stopgap. SMIC was not competitive because it was a late-comer to a game that ASML dominates and there was not force to push clients towards SMIC; that problem is now solved by America's blunder. American tech embargoes are rooted in fear and hallmarked by failure.
The US is playing it quite well thus far. Huawei was knocked down. All those investments into the latest and greatest application chips and 5G modems designed for 7nm and below lost most of their value with nowhere to manufacture them. It was quite clever to wait for Huawei to grow into a +$100 bn company fully dependent on US and its allies technology and then cut off their legs. Way to maximize your damage in dollar terms.

Chinese companies are showering China's strategic competitors with record amounts of money. But then again what else are they going to do? Buy SMEE's vaporware?

Oh and btw, the first complete IC manufacturing line was in the US over 50 years ago.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
DUV cannot go below 28nm physical features. The 28nm that gets thrown around all the time is just a process name, as are 14nm , 7nm, etc... Nice try to dodge the fact that SMIC dropped the ball in their 14nm game.

The US is playing it quite well thus far. Huawei was knocked down. All those investments into the latest and greatest application chips and 5G modems lost most of their value with nowhere to manufacture them. It was quite clever to wait for Huawei to grow into a +$100 bn company fully dependend on US and its allies technology and then cut off their legs. Way to maximize your damage in dollar terms. Chinese companies are showering China's strategic competitors with record amounts of money. So much for their mistrust.
You learned that here, possibly from me. A few posts ago you got confused about feature size vs process node class. Now you are regurgitating what I said. Coincidence?

Again, not really. If they cut Huawei off when it was a small company then it wouldn't have any money, all the accumulated profits wouldn't have existed and it couldn't have contributed decades of value added. Huawei wouldn't have had accumulated hundreds of billions in capital. It would've just been nothing like every single Indian company. So no, it was a stupid decision, just like their response to COVID.
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
Touched a sensitive button, I see. I find it amusing that people like you choose to sell their talents to their motherland's strategic competitor but sing odes to their motherland. You must be quite conflicted about the whole situation?

I'm tracking this conversation.

Just for the record, while asking people about their background is not against the rules, in an online setting where we all go by online pseudonyms, it is certainly poor form and is half a step away from asking someone to doxx themselves.

It is more than an appropriate response to tell someone to "mind your own business" if one asks that, and I advise both of you to stay well clear from this particular set of questioning.
 

nlalyst

Junior Member
Registered Member
You learned that here, possibly from me. A few posts ago you got confused about feature size vs process node class. Now you are regurgitating what I said. Coincidence?
What I actually said was that the SMEE's best system was qualified for a 90nm process. You claimed that 90nm actually refers to the physical resolution, of the system, but never provided any evidence. Do you have proof or not?

The one article that you did link confirms what I said:
As of June 2021, SMEE’s most advanced device is its '600 series' scanner for IC front-end manufacturing. This machine can be used to build chips at the 90nm, 110nm and 280nm process technologies.
 
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manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Touched a sensitive button, I see. I find it amusing that people like you choose to sell their talents to their motherland's strategic competitor but sing odes to their motherland. You must be quite conflicted about the whole situation?
Getting desperate with the personal stuff, eh? There is no conflict in me. I complete my education and work experience in the US and then I go home. Keep the small talk to yourself; I don't swing that way.
DUV cannot go below 28nm physical features. The 28nm that gets thrown around all the time is just a process name, as are 14nm , 7nm, etc... Nice try to dodge the fact that SMIC dropped the ball in their 14nm game.
28 is 28; 14 is 14 and 7 is 7. Nice try squirming out of that one. The only ball that dropped is your reading comprehension. 14nm is expected to make up a very small portion of the sales due to application needs. I have addressed that.
The US is playing it quite well thus far.
Thus far... for 2 years LOL. Only if you count the money on the surface, not even if you delve deeper into progress. That's already falling apart for the US. Americans are so short-termed. Trump's admin didn't care if they would make a monster Chinese IC industry as long as they can seem to pull ahead for the next couple years while Trump is in office.
Huawei was knocked down.
With profit rising, still the largest 5G company in the world and now invested into its own chips? As with all anti-China logic, there is no future. Whatever small damage is done now is game set match.
All those investments into the latest and greatest application chips and 5G modems designed for 7nm and below lost most of their value with nowhere to manufacture them.
But they are still manufacturing them. They have forseen this, stockpiled the chips needed until Chinese 7nm chips come online, then researched additional innovative ways to improve chip performance in the meantime.
It was quite clever to wait for Huawei to grow into a +$100 bn company fully dependent on US and its allies technology and then cut off their legs. Way to maximize your damage in dollar terms.
It's clever to wait for Huawei to have more than ample resources to research its on lithography? LOL Yeah, just like how it's clever for the US to wait for China to become larger in PPP before trying to attack it's economy. It's clever for the US to throw away the final frontier of lithography against China with a half-assed ban.
Chinese companies are showering China's strategic competitors with record amounts of money. But then again what else are they going to do? Buy SMEE's vaporware?
Anti-Chinese people only look for short term. They don't care that what was a steady stream has now become a stopgap and that China went through decades of research in 2 years and is on the cusp of having the world's only complete and competitive IC manufacturing line. They just comfort themselves with, "Does China have it now? No!? We win!" What about tomorrow? There is no tomorrow for those who bet against China.
Oh and btw, the first complete IC manufacturing line was in the US over 50 years ago.
The the US has regressed because it now needs a Dutch firm and Asian expertise.
 
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