Chinese semiconductor industry

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Oldschool

Junior Member
Registered Member
When Huawei tells hisilicon do the 3nm design in preparation for future, lol.
Come on. That's a serious stretch.

What it must absolute do is to pay up and license SMIC 28nm/14nm or even 7nm tech and have it's engineers and ICRD engineers on site of SMIC to learn the process.

This is what it absolutely have to do.

Preparation design for 3nm is too far fetched.

The value of liang mong soong is spread his knowledge throughout China not just holed up in SMIC which afraid of US sanction and not willing to to manufacture for Huawei.

Not licensing manufacturing tech from SMIC and not willing to sell it's hisilicon IP to domestic players are the two biggest mistakes Huawei making right now.

SMIC will not turn it down to license since the government is control of thing and also should able to fetch $100million from Huawei for 28nm/14nm/7nm tech transfer
 
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voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
When Huawei tells hisilicon do the 3nm design in preparation for future, lol.
Come on. That's a serious stretch.

What it must absolute do is to pay up and license SMIC 28nm/14nm or even 7nm tech and have it's engineers and ICRD engineers on site of SMIC to learn the process.

This is what it absolutely have to do.

Preparation design for 3nm is too far fetched.

The value of liang mong soong is spread his knowledge throughout China not just holed up in SMIC which afraid of US sanction and not willing to to manufacture for Huawei.

Not licensing manufacturing tech from SMIC and not willing to sell it's hisilicon IP to domestic players are the two biggest mistakes Huawei making right now.

SMIC will not turn it down to license since the government is control of things.
Lol I understand you man.

But Huawei must keep HiSilicon busy so that they dont lose their advanced skills. I am sure there are other companies dealing with old processes in China.

However, HiSilicon is the only one which is so advanced. Better to have them working in advanced stuff. Maybe they can put some guys for older processes but the core team should absolutely go for 3nm
 

Arcgem

New Member
Registered Member
When Huawei tells hisilicon do the 3nm design in preparation for future, lol.
Come on. That's a serious stretch.

What it must absolute do is to pay up and license SMIC 28nm/14nm or even 7nm tech and have it's engineers and ICRD engineers on site of SMIC to learn the process.

This is what it absolutely have to do.

Preparation design for 3nm is too far fetched.

The value of liang mong soong is spread his knowledge throughout China not just holed up in SMIC which afraid of US sanction and not willing to to manufacture for Huawei.

Huawei is more forward-thinking than that. All these new Chinese chip design companies coming out with sub-7nm chips are necessary to create a viable market for domestic advanced process chip fabrication. Even if they use TSMC now, their existence makes them potential customers for a future domestic alternative, increasing business incentives to invest in cutting-edge fabrication technology.

Like it or not, China's chip companies are betting on a future of EUV fabrication.
 

Oldschool

Junior Member
Registered Member
Huawei is more forward-thinking than that. All these new Chinese chip design companies coming out with sub-7nm chips are necessary to create a viable market for domestic advanced process chip fabrication. Even if they use TSMC now, their existence makes them potential customers for a future domestic alternative, increasing business incentives to invest in cutting-edge fabrication technology.

Like it or not, China's chip companies are betting on a future of EUV fabrication.

To @voyager1 as well.
That's not quite what I meant.
Huawei can prepare for far future(3nm) as much as it wants but its neglecting the immediate future which is have the 28nm/14nm manufacturing tech and it's engineers ready from licensing from SMIC. I think this is far more important.

You said ready for EUV at 5nm? How Huawei gonna get that manufacturing tech? None other than licensing from liang and SMIC.

Huawei is unique. No one else on earth will dare to manufacture for Huawei. It has to depend on itself.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
To @voyager1 as well.
That's not quite what I meant.
Huawei can prepare for far future(3nm) as much as it wants but its neglecting the immediate future which is have the 28nm/14nm manufacturing tech and it's engineers ready from licensing from SMIC. I think this is far more important.

You said ready for EUV at 5nm? How Huawei gonna get that manufacturing tech? None other than licensing from liang and SMIC.

Huawei is unique. No one else on earth will dare to manufacture for Huawei. It has to depend on itself.
Maybe you are right. But honestly we dont know. We are "outside" the game.

Maybe they have already set up internal teams, or maybe there are other companies in China which can manage this. Dunno

I would personally prefer Huawei to be at the front leading technological advancements and leave the scraps to other domestic companies.

To conclude, too early to know, and we are too much unqualified to know
 

Oldschool

Junior Member
Registered Member
Maybe you are right. But honestly we dont know. We are "outside" the game.

Maybe they have already set up internal teams, or maybe there are other companies in China which can manage this. Dunno

I would personally prefer Huawei to be at the front leading technological advancements and leave the scraps to other domestic companies.

To conclude, too early to know, and we are too much unqualified to know
Licensing is big deal, quite a bit of money involved. Even if not official, some rumors would definitely show up.
Nothing so far across many Chinese forums. Most likely nothing between SMIC and Huawei in terms licensing.

@WTAN. Have you heard anything.
If Huawei serious about manufacturing, it must get from SMIC because it's the only one has finfet tech in China. Now it's a good time to have it's engineers trained up on site at SMIC.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
A fully indigenous 14nm Production line may be 1-2 years away.
China has already sucessfully developed a fully indigenous 28nm Production line.
Companies like Naura, North CETC etc are already working on 14nm Equipment.
There is also the option of acquiring second hand 14nm Equipment and recently SMIC has been doing this.
SMIC is already building a De-Americanised 14nm Production Line as US approvals for new equipment purchases have not come through.

Apart from China, is there any other countries that have fully indigenous Chips production line better than 28nm?. I don't think even the US is able to do that

How about Russia and Iran ?
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
Seems hard given RISC-V foundation is not an american foundation anymore. Only thing the US could do is maybe place a import ban on it self. But the Americans are known to be creative when it comes to lawfare.

nahhh, nobody could ban RISC-V, thats the beauty of it .. the US could be the laughing stock of the world if they try ;)

Yes, the only creativity left for the US is in lawfare .... as the brightest mind of Americans in the US study laws and stock market, no longer in STEM
 

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Apart from China, is there any other countries that have fully indigenous Chips production line better than 28nm?. I don't think even the US is able to do that

How about Russia and Iran ?

US is trying to do 7nm now and will have it up and running because it has absolute access to everything. TSMC is being forced to set up foundry in the US and give every bit of foundry fab tech they have to the US.

Pretty sure Japan and Korea have fully indigenous chip design to fab (every piece of equipment minus EUVL) for down to 7nm and beyond but they have access to all equipment. EUVL is held only by Netherlands but it is one piece of equipment and Netherlands can't get anywhere close to matching Japan, Korea, or even China when it comes to the entire chain. EUVL is like one machine that makes a car's frame that a production tech giant uses. It's impressive but a fraction of the technology tree. TSMC's specialty is in the production side but uses equipment from all over the place. Production in itself is another half of the technology tree in SCs. So to use an analogy, EUVL is like holding the best battery tech for Electric Vehicle manufacturers and if ASML in Netherlands is the best battery supplier, Tesla is Taiwan's TSMC.

China has 28nm (fully indigenous ecosystem of equipment), 12/14nm with some reliance on external equipment but working on overcoming and using 12/14nm with SMIC n+1 process for 7nm... again probably with some external equipment that should be easily overcome because as I understand, 7nm is just missing EUVL but EUVL is one solution to the problem. China is far closer to mastering the entire technology tree than Taiwan is. It has its own equipment that Taiwan sources because China knows it can be banned from accessing equipment. There's no shame or purpose to not use best available equipment from anywhere. That's how business and manufacturing works. But China is treated differently so it has planned and went about this differently. It's been doing it for at least a decade with foundational works and organisation that started decades ago. China also has superior chip research and design which they previously got Taiwan to fabricate for them. Now all China's missing is EDA solution, architecture solution but this is a tiny easy problem despite Indians online shouting otherwise lol... I think they don't know how any of this works. The greatest problem seems to be how to fab 7nm and beyond without EUVL but SMIC apparently could manage 7nm soon with alternative solution.

Russia is allowed obsolete equipment (like China) only and Russia's domestic foundry/fab tech is not close to 28nm. I don't think their chip designs are close to leading edge either (but they have these and the organisation/infrastructure base) because fewer to no commercial industrial products and military ones can make do with more obsolete chip designs and production so unless Russia ventures into developing similar industries that export products with leading chips in them, they don't need any of this... none of their GDP comes from this and military chips they can make themselves because they don't need to be 28nm or that modern and sophisticated. India produces some of its own chips (for their more advanced military products they don't import) but of course using obsolete equipment from outside India and producing >100nm. Almost no chip design and research due to no government and private initiative until now but that's just to set up foundations that could potentially bear fruit decades from now. Iran is much further behind in this field. I'm not sure if Russia has long been banned from buying latest modern chips but Russia has no domestic industry that make use of them so this hasn't been too publicly apparent.
 
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caudaceus

Senior Member
Registered Member
US is trying to do 7nm now and will have it up and running because it has absolute access to everything. TSMC is being forced to set up foundry in the US and give every bit of foundry fab tech they have to the US.

Pretty sure Japan and Korea have fully indigenous chip design to fab (every piece of equipment minus EUVL) for down to 7nm and beyond but they have access to all equipment. EUVL is held only by Netherlands but it is one piece of equipment and Netherlands can't get anywhere close to matching Japan, Korea, or even China when it comes to the entire chain. EUVL is like one machine that makes a car's frame that a production tech giant uses. It's impressive but a fraction of the technology tree. TSMC's specialty is in the production side but uses equipment from all over the place. Production in itself is another half of the technology tree in SCs. So to use an analogy, EUVL is like holding the best battery tech for Electric Vehicle manufacturers and if ASML in Netherlands is the best battery supplier, Tesla is Taiwan's TSMC.

China has 28nm (fully indigenous ecosystem of equipment), 12/14nm with some reliance on external equipment but working on overcoming and using 12/14nm with SMIC n+1 process for 7nm... again probably with some external equipment that should be easily overcome because as I understand, 7nm is just missing EUVL but EUVL is one solution to the problem. China is far closer to mastering the entire technology tree than Taiwan is. It has its own equipment that Taiwan sources because China knows it can be banned from accessing equipment. There's no shame or purpose to not use best available equipment from anywhere. That's how business and manufacturing works. But China is treated differently so it has planned and went about this differently. It's been doing it for at least a decade with foundational works and organisation that started decades ago. China also has superior chip research and design which they previously got Taiwan to fabricate for them. Now all China's missing is EDA solution, architecture solution but this is a tiny easy problem despite Indians online shouting otherwise lol... I think they don't know how any of this works. The greatest problem seems to be how to fab 7nm and beyond without EUVL but SMIC apparently could manage 7nm soon with alternative solution.

Russia is allowed obsolete equipment (like China) only and Russia's domestic foundry/fab tech is not close to 28nm. I don't think their chip designs are close to leading edge either (but they have these and the organisation/infrastructure base) because fewer to no commercial industrial products and military ones can make do with more obsolete chip designs and production so unless Russia ventures into developing similar industries that export products with leading chips in them, they don't need any of this... none of their GDP comes from this and military chips they can make themselves because they don't need to be 28nm or that modern and sophisticated. India produces some of its own chips (for their more advanced military products they don't import) but of course using obsolete equipment from outside India and producing >100nm. Almost no chip design and research due to no government and private initiative until now but that's just to set up foundations that could potentially bear fruit decades from now. Iran is much further behind in this field. I'm not sure if Russia has long been banned from buying latest modern chips but Russia has no domestic industry that make use of them so this hasn't been too publicly apparent.
Korea doesn't really have material manufacturing and equipment manufacturing I think. I remember a few years ago Japan embargoed semicon material against Korea.

OTOH I kind of impressed Russia is able to design various high tech military products (hypersonic missiles, rocket, engines, nuclear deactirsy) without much supercomputer.
 
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