Chinese semiconductor industry

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Oldschool

Junior Member
Registered Member
May 15th 2019 - US put Huawei on entity list

May 15th 2020 - US force TSMC to cut Huawei and other Chinese entities

May 15th 2021 - US does full chip ban on all of China and blanket semiconductor embargo
Not so much about chips but tools.

I wish US could do a blanket ban like you said but unlikely they still want to sell to Lenovo, Xiaomi, Oppo to make money.

It says 14nm and be below though. Not as bad as commission on AI proposed immersion duv ban.

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Tyler

Captain
Registered Member
May 15th 2019 - US put Huawei on entity list

May 15th 2020 - US force TSMC to cut Huawei and other Chinese entities

May 15th 2021 - US does full chip ban on all of China and blanket semiconductor embargo
China will impose embargo on Taiwan province soon and then require export licenses for all Taiwan made semiconductor.
 

WTAN

Junior Member
Registered Member
These China Hawks want to restrict Chinese FABS from developing Chips at 14nm and under by blocking sales of Semi Equipment.
I wonder how many IC Equipment Companies will agree to go along with this Worldwide ban? Giving up sales to China to maintain Americas crumbling lead in technology sounds ridiculous.
Even with a so-called Semiconductor Alliance, i think many Japanese and EU Countries will just ignore it and continue selling to China. Jobs and Profits trump American delusions.

The most Important task for China is to next develop a Indigenous 14nm Production Line. The creation of the Local 14nm Production line will also allow the production of 7nm Chips.
Much of the Equipment used in Fabricating 14nm Chips can be used to produce 7nm Chips.
SMIC is using its 14nm FAB to produce its N+1 Chips.
 

ansy1968

Brigadier
Registered Member
These China Hawks want to restrict Chinese FABS from developing Chips at 14nm and under by blocking sales of Semi Equipment.
I wonder how many IC Equipment Companies will agree to go along with this Worldwide ban? Giving up sales to China to maintain Americas crumbling lead in technology sounds ridiculous.
Even with a so-called Semiconductor Alliance, i think many Japanese and EU Countries will just ignore it and continue selling to China. Jobs and Profits trump American delusions.

The most Important task for China is to next develop a Indigenous 14nm Production Line. The creation of the Local 14nm Production line will also allow the production of 7nm Chips.
Much of the Equipment used in Fabricating 14nm Chips can be used to produce 7nm Chips.
SMIC is using its 14nm FAB to produce its N+1 Chips.
@WTAN any news when the domesticated 14nm line will open this year or next year?
 
D

Deleted member 15887

Guest
These China Hawks want to restrict Chinese FABS from developing Chips at 14nm and under by blocking sales of Semi Equipment.
I wonder how many IC Equipment Companies will agree to go along with this Worldwide ban? Giving up sales to China to maintain Americas crumbling lead in technology sounds ridiculous.
Even with a so-called Semiconductor Alliance, i think many Japanese and EU Countries will just ignore it and continue selling to China. Jobs and Profits trump American delusions.

The most Important task for China is to next develop a Indigenous 14nm Production Line. The creation of the Local 14nm Production line will also allow the production of 7nm Chips.
Much of the Equipment used in Fabricating 14nm Chips can be used to produce 7nm Chips.
SMIC is using its 14nm FAB to produce its N+1 Chips.
Any interesting updates currently on EUV or SMEE's 28nm lithography development efforts?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Interesting here is what the leading semi industrialist think of China effort to achieve self sufficiency. This discussion more or less confirm the problem that we have been discussing in this forum
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Give Domestic EDA Vendors a Fair Chance
Outside of China, the stranglehold firms have on technology is not only in basic IP. At present, 95% of China’s EDA market is controlled by foreign enterprises.
Empyrean Software is the leading EDA supplier based in China. Dong noted that the EDA industry is 60 years old, while Empyrean is only 10 years old this year. China has to acknowledge there’s a gap in experience.
Dong said, “To develop China’s EDA, we must first have strategic positioning. For example, Empyrean ‘s full-market operation has hardly taken any support from the state in the past 10 years, because we firmly believe that the development of China’s integrated circuits will definitely bring opportunities to EDA. One is to strengthen cooperation with domestic OEMs. For example, the cooperation between Empyrean and Huawei is very close. China’s IC industry demand has driven China’s own EDA innovation. This kind of industrial chain cooperation is very important.”

Xia believes that Chinese industry should not automatically support domestic EDA tools simply because they are from China. The Chinese factory must practice non-discriminatory sourcing. American companies suspect that Chinese buyers reflexively support the Chinese manufacturers, but that’s not what Chinese buyers believe. In many cases, Chinese companies are actually giving priority to foreign products because they are mature and easy to use.

It is important to develop domestically-produced tools, but the market requires that Chinese suppliers get no special support — local suppliers must compete fairly with foreign EDA tools. From the market perspective, the monopoly that foreign EDA suppliers have is not good for downstream customers. “Even for the employees of these international EDA companies, it’s hard for them to job-hop,” added Xia. “Any country should support new market entrants instead of using national boundaries to limit who can participate or not. This is good for the development of the market, customers, and the entire industry.”

Developing a competitive local EDA industry is a long-term goal. Foreign manufacturers started 60 years ago and have developed through hundreds of mergers and acquisitions. It is unrealistic to expect China can become competitive in EDA in three years. Domestic EDA manufacturers must aim at 10 years and 20 years to do it.

Production Equipment
The situation for semiconductor manufacturing equipment is similar. Advanced equipment has been banned for sale to China. If the availability of production equipment remains a bargaining chip in global trade disputes, how is China to increase the localization rate of chips?
As a representative for equipment manufacturers, Cao acknowledge that China’s semiconductor equipment is far from the world’s advanced level, and that has become an important factor restricting China’s semiconductor industry.

That said, Chinese companies are becoming competitive. Cao said, “When our equipment is good enough, they will remove it from the list of restricted exports. For example, the Bureau of Industry and Security of the United States Department of Commerce went to AMEC, and then went to SMIC the next day, where they saw our equipment running smoothly in SMIC’s fab. They removed the equipment from the embargo list six months later.” Cao said, “The reason is that China has been able to produce enough equipment and good equipment, so it’s no longer meaningful to continue to limit security in the United States.”

Even though China has made great progress in production equipment after 10 years, the overall situation is still unsatisfactory. Several people have said before that the equipment can be bought without having to spend a lot of money on it. However, after the ZTE incident, the whole country has a unified understanding.

Cao believes that the key to localization of equipment is the collaboration of upstream and downstream of the industrial chain. Downstream, Chinese IC manufacturing enterprises have to be willing to use equipment made by domestic suppliers. “In fact, we also have this problem. We will often ask ourselves: will we be reluctant to use domestically-produced parts? When we ask manufacturers to use domestically-produced equipment, can we actively help domestic suppliers who provide parts and subsystems for us?” he said.

“Domestic companies will encounter this problem,” Cao continued. “I think my product is ready, but no customers want to help me, no customer can tell me the disadvantages of my products.” In the past two years, the government has done a lot of work to promote the integration between upstream and downstream, such as letting downstream companies lead the research on some equipment and parts. From the first day, you are tied to the downstream enterprises.”

Developing a competitive local EDA industry is a long-term goal. Foreign manufacturers started 60 years ago and have developed through hundreds of mergers and acquisitions. It is unrealistic to expect China can become competitive in EDA in three years. Domestic EDA manufacturers must aim at 10 years and 20 years to do it.
 
D

Deleted member 15949

Guest
May 15th 2019 - US put Huawei on entity list

May 15th 2020 - US force TSMC to cut Huawei and other Chinese entities

May 15th 2021 - US does full chip ban on all of China and blanket semiconductor embargo
There were leaks ahead of time for the HUawei Entity List and DPR additions. The only way the US can do a full chip ban on all of China would be through IEEPA and if they are going to use IEEPA, it would take them at least a few months for drafting and legal review. It's not coming, at least not immediately, given there's no leaks to that effect or any indications that will come.

And even if we do treat it as true, it's going to be harmful but not the magical US trick you think it is. China already has IC capacity and self-sufficient up to 90/45nm-ish which means most of the ISM ICs and significant amounts of comms and compute ICs would be usable; albeit less efficient. Existing capital stock would exist and increased market incentives for everyone to do WFE would alleviate those problems as well
 

quantumlight

Junior Member
Registered Member
Interesting here is what the leading semi industrialist think of China effort to achieve self sufficiency. This discussion more or less confirm the problem that we have been discussing in this forum
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Give Domestic EDA Vendors a Fair Chance
Outside of China, the stranglehold firms have on technology is not only in basic IP. At present, 95% of China’s EDA market is controlled by foreign enterprises.
Empyrean Software is the leading EDA supplier based in China. Dong noted that the EDA industry is 60 years old, while Empyrean is only 10 years old this year. China has to acknowledge there’s a gap in experience.
Dong said, “To develop China’s EDA, we must first have strategic positioning. For example, Empyrean ‘s full-market operation has hardly taken any support from the state in the past 10 years, because we firmly believe that the development of China’s integrated circuits will definitely bring opportunities to EDA. One is to strengthen cooperation with domestic OEMs. For example, the cooperation between Empyrean and Huawei is very close. China’s IC industry demand has driven China’s own EDA innovation. This kind of industrial chain cooperation is very important.”

Xia believes that Chinese industry should not automatically support domestic EDA tools simply because they are from China. The Chinese factory must practice non-discriminatory sourcing. American companies suspect that Chinese buyers reflexively support the Chinese manufacturers, but that’s not what Chinese buyers believe. In many cases, Chinese companies are actually giving priority to foreign products because they are mature and easy to use.

It is important to develop domestically-produced tools, but the market requires that Chinese suppliers get no special support — local suppliers must compete fairly with foreign EDA tools. From the market perspective, the monopoly that foreign EDA suppliers have is not good for downstream customers. “Even for the employees of these international EDA companies, it’s hard for them to job-hop,” added Xia. “Any country should support new market entrants instead of using national boundaries to limit who can participate or not. This is good for the development of the market, customers, and the entire industry.”

Developing a competitive local EDA industry is a long-term goal. Foreign manufacturers started 60 years ago and have developed through hundreds of mergers and acquisitions. It is unrealistic to expect China can become competitive in EDA in three years. Domestic EDA manufacturers must aim at 10 years and 20 years to do it.

Production Equipment
The situation for semiconductor manufacturing equipment is similar. Advanced equipment has been banned for sale to China. If the availability of production equipment remains a bargaining chip in global trade disputes, how is China to increase the localization rate of chips?
As a representative for equipment manufacturers, Cao acknowledge that China’s semiconductor equipment is far from the world’s advanced level, and that has become an important factor restricting China’s semiconductor industry.

That said, Chinese companies are becoming competitive. Cao said, “When our equipment is good enough, they will remove it from the list of restricted exports. For example, the Bureau of Industry and Security of the United States Department of Commerce went to AMEC, and then went to SMIC the next day, where they saw our equipment running smoothly in SMIC’s fab. They removed the equipment from the embargo list six months later.” Cao said, “The reason is that China has been able to produce enough equipment and good equipment, so it’s no longer meaningful to continue to limit security in the United States.”

Even though China has made great progress in production equipment after 10 years, the overall situation is still unsatisfactory. Several people have said before that the equipment can be bought without having to spend a lot of money on it. However, after the ZTE incident, the whole country has a unified understanding.

Cao believes that the key to localization of equipment is the collaboration of upstream and downstream of the industrial chain. Downstream, Chinese IC manufacturing enterprises have to be willing to use equipment made by domestic suppliers. “In fact, we also have this problem. We will often ask ourselves: will we be reluctant to use domestically-produced parts? When we ask manufacturers to use domestically-produced equipment, can we actively help domestic suppliers who provide parts and subsystems for us?” he said.

“Domestic companies will encounter this problem,” Cao continued. “I think my product is ready, but no customers want to help me, no customer can tell me the disadvantages of my products.” In the past two years, the government has done a lot of work to promote the integration between upstream and downstream, such as letting downstream companies lead the research on some equipment and parts. From the first day, you are tied to the downstream enterprises.”

Developing a competitive local EDA industry is a long-term goal. Foreign manufacturers started 60 years ago and have developed through hundreds of mergers and acquisitions. It is unrealistic to expect China can become competitive in EDA in three years. Domestic EDA manufacturers must aim at 10 years and 20 years to do it.

EDA is just software, push comes to shove China can pirate it, or get source code via espoinage...

Whats with this whole 60 years comparison? Heck the Boeing 737 has existed for 60 years doesnt mean it will take two more decades for Comac to catch up
 

Nutrient

Junior Member
Registered Member
To the experts what is the significant of this breakthrough?
[Loongson Instruction Set Architecture (LoongArch)]
I wouldn't say it's a breakthrough. It's just another instruction set, one of hundreds. I haven't looked at the architecture yet, so I can't say how good it is technically.

However, the technical elegance is far less important than the political and business aspects.

Politics. As the article mentioned, even RISC-V was mainly designed by students from Berkeley, so there's a risk (no pun intended) that the US could find some way to ban all Chinese companies from using it. The same for ARM. So LoongArch will be decent insurance against that, especially for China's military.

Business. Whether LoongArch succeeds depends on how liberally Loongson allows other people to use the new architecture. If Loongson Technology keeps it tightly proprietary, I doubt the new design will have much popularity.
 

daifo

Major
Registered Member
I wouldn't say it's a breakthrough. It's just another instruction set, one of hundreds. I haven't looked at the architecture yet, so I can't say how good it is technically.

However, the technical elegance is far less important than the political and business aspects.

Politics. As the article mentioned, even RISC-V was mainly designed by students from Berkeley, so there's a risk (no pun intended) that the US could find some way to ban all Chinese companies from using it. The same for ARM. So LoongArch will be decent insurance against that, especially for China's military.

Business. Whether LoongArch succeeds depends on how liberally Loongson allows other people to use the new architecture. If Loongson Technology keeps it tightly proprietary, I doubt the new design will have much popularity.

Risc-V foundation has already purposely moved to sweden or switzerland to avoid any attempt by the US to restrict usage. There is nothing stoping China from continuing using MIPS/x86/ARM, it would just be a problem commercializing it externally if they did not have a proper license. The only way that China can truly be a real global computing tech giant is to own and make popular a homegrown ISA and OS, otherwise it will always just be a outsource manufacturer
 
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