Chinese semiconductor industry

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caudaceus

Senior Member
Registered Member
The problem runs deeper than just EUV technology... America has monopoly on x86 and with Nvidia buying ARM, there goes the entire IoT industry... x86/64 includes AMD which and other Intel clones...

Even if SMIC magically catches up tomorrow, it cannot replace the x86 processor. All desktop, laptop, etc use motherboards with sockets and chipsets that are tailored to Intel x86 and even a more limited scope America ban of just Intel processors will force most if not all computer makers to rip their supply chain and factories out of China...

Many software/OS like Windows, Autodesk, Adobe, and even AAA title PC games only work on Windows and only on x86....modern gaming for example requires Directx12, and for that you needs Microsoft Windows 10. Applications like Adobe Photoshop or Autocad, 3dsmax, etc need to be ran on either x86 processor or Apple Mac, all of which US can ban export to China... its the same reason Linux hasnt replaced Windows, because vast majority of software ecosystem was written for Windows. The US oil company I work for still runs some Windows 2003 servers because some properitary applications were written for it decades ago and they cannot just rip it out... Likewise Nvidia pushing the market to adopt DLSS means it has a leg up on AMD GPU, and thats also true for upcoming Chinese GPUs... gamers will wants games that support DLSS and AMD cannot offer that, but most likely US will force TSMC to ban Chinese GPU companies soon...

Even if China can fab 3nm chips tomorrow, most of the computing world are already on US platform and US can and will exploit and leverage this momentum and inertia...

This is just like the Google Play store thing but on a hardware level... Even before TSMC was forced to sever ties with Huawei most consumers in EU dropped Huawei phones when they couldnt support Google Play because they already got entrenched with Gmail, Google Maps, Youtube, etc these are not just apps but also represent other platforms and access to services that Google had built up the network effects of for almost two decades...

Lets be honest, America still has a lot of squeeze left in it yet

Thats not to say China doesnt have some levers too but it needs to start using them Now not later
More pushing towards Cloud then.
 

voyager1

Captain
Registered Member
China is NOT immigration country integrating people with different culture , habit and custom only create seed of problem in the future see what they do in Europe. And what Africa has to offer since they don't have first rate university?, Go and live in Africa see how long can you last! And the why they run their country does not give me confidence. Name me any African they was awarded award in STEM?
China's leadership disagree with you. China actively sponsors Africans to study in Chinese universities.

And please dont be racist towards Africans. These people have been let down from their failed governments and from Western Colonialism. In these poor countries, the people who are the brightest are tough people who survived in this environment.

And I didnt say that China should follow the EU's model (failed), neither the US' model (working sometimes, failing other times)...
China should create its own model for attracting top foreign talent. They could first offer them, a 15 years resident permit, and then allow them to take difficult tests, on political system, cultural norms etc.

China can create its own immigration model, there is no reason to follow EU and the US.

The people entering EU and the US are mostly the bottom of the society which is why they are failing. China should strive only for excellence and for following its own culture not importing culture from other countries
 

nugroho

Junior Member
The problem runs deeper than just EUV technology... America has monopoly on x86 and with Nvidia buying ARM, there goes the entire IoT industry... x86/64 includes AMD which and other Intel clones...

Even if SMIC magically catches up tomorrow, it cannot replace the x86 processor. All desktop, laptop, etc use motherboards with sockets and chipsets that are tailored to Intel x86 and even a more limited scope America ban of just Intel processors will force most if not all computer makers to rip their supply chain and factories out of China...

Many software/OS like Windows, Autodesk, Adobe, and even AAA title PC games only work on Windows and only on x86....modern gaming for example requires Directx12, and for that you needs Microsoft Windows 10. Applications like Adobe Photoshop or Autocad, 3dsmax, etc need to be ran on either x86 processor or Apple Mac, all of which US can ban export to China... its the same reason Linux hasnt replaced Windows, because vast majority of software ecosystem was written for Windows. The US oil company I work for still runs some Windows 2003 servers because some properitary applications were written for it decades ago and they cannot just rip it out... Likewise Nvidia pushing the market to adopt DLSS means it has a leg up on AMD GPU, and thats also true for upcoming Chinese GPUs... gamers will wants games that support DLSS and AMD cannot offer that, but most likely US will force TSMC to ban Chinese GPU companies soon...

Even if China can fab 3nm chips tomorrow, most of the computing world are already on US platform and US can and will exploit and leverage this momentum and inertia...

This is just like the Google Play store thing but on a hardware level... Even before TSMC was forced to sever ties with Huawei most consumers in EU dropped Huawei phones when they couldnt support Google Play because they already got entrenched with Gmail, Google Maps, Youtube, etc these are not just apps but also represent other platforms and access to services that Google had built up the network effects of for almost two decades...

Lets be honest, America still has a lot of squeeze left in it yet

Thats not to say China doesnt have some levers too but it needs to start using them Now not later
It all depend on military, If China has biggest military in the world, then it can sue Intel for monopoly, it can block us semiconductor from ASML, it can reverse Cymer patent etc. All can be done with gun soft power ( gun soft power = threaten ). Even USD can be dethroned. That is what US doing now. Remember that US can say there are security threat in Huawei, in all Chinese company, WMD in Iraq, can US proved them in court? NO, but the world must believe it. That is gun soft power
 

LawLeadsToPeace

Senior Member
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
Registered Member
China's leadership disagree with you. China actively sponsors Africans to study in Chinese universities.

And please dont be racist towards Africans. These people have been let down from their failed governments and from Western Colonialism. In these poor countries, the people who are the brightest are tough people who survived in this environment.

And I didnt say that China should follow the EU's model (failed), neither the US' model (working sometimes, failing other times)...
China should create its own model for attracting top foreign talent. They could first offer them, a 15 years resident permit, and then allow them to take difficult tests, on political system, cultural norms etc.

China can create its own immigration model, there is no reason to follow EU and the US.

The people entering EU and the US are mostly the bottom of the society which is why they are failing. China should strive only for excellence and for following its own culture not importing culture from other countries
China is NOT immigration country integrating people with different culture , habit and custom only create seed of problem in the future see what they do in Europe. And what Africa has to offer since they don't have first rate university?, Go and live in Africa see how long can you last! And the why they run their country does not give me confidence. Name me any African they was awarded award in STEM? Or any world breaking invention in Technology?

I don't know where you come from but NO! and I doubt China will allow immigration of alien culture
Just a heads up. This forum isnt for the discussion of integration being successful or not as that leads to some controversial stuff that is banned in this forum. Im not an admin, but Im asking yall need to stop with this debate. All of us are here for tech stuff, not political science.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
China's leadership disagree with you. China actively sponsors Africans to study in Chinese universities.
To foster friendship and to develop Africa as a friend and counter to the West, not to draw Africans into China. There are actually meetings amongst the Chinese elite on how to ensure that they go home afterwards instead of trying to move to China.
And please dont be racist towards Africans. These people have been let down from their failed governments and from Western Colonialism. In these poor countries, the people who are the brightest are tough people who survived in this environment.
It's nothing personal against Africans; I have pleasant conversations with them, I wish them unbridled success and I hope that they can take revenge against the civilizations that enslaved them. I even support China training, paying, and contributing to them for that quest. That said, it doesn't mean I want them or any foreigner to mix into Chinese society. China, at its core, is a homogenous society and it has the elements for success within its country so let's keep it that way. I know most Chinese feel this way as well.
And I didnt say that China should follow the EU's model (failed), neither the US' model (working sometimes, failing other times)...
China should create its own model for attracting top foreign talent. They could first offer them, a 15 years resident permit, and then allow them to take difficult tests, on political system, cultural norms etc.
Top top talent, like the talent that China doesn't have and can uplift China's standing in a field are already given generous packages to attract them. The rest of them, China has enough domestic STEM talent and doesn't need to hire foreign talent where Chinese talent can be used.
China can create its own immigration model, there is no reason to follow EU and the US.
Yeah, I just outlined it above. But it will not be a model that challenges China's homogeneity.
The people entering EU and the US are mostly the bottom of the society which is why they are failing. China should strive only for excellence and for following its own culture not importing culture from other countries
Yes, 2 lines above. Preferably, they enter, do what they can do and contribute to China, take a handsome lump of pay, then go home to retire.
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
China's leadership disagree with you. China actively sponsors Africans to study in Chinese universities.

And please dont be racist towards Africans. These people have been let down from their failed governments and from Western Colonialism. In these poor countries, the people who are the brightest are tough people who survived in this environment.

And I didnt say that China should follow the EU's model (failed), neither the US' model (working sometimes, failing other times)...
China should create its own model for attracting top foreign talent. They could first offer them, a 15 years resident permit, and then allow them to take difficult tests, on political system, cultural norms etc.

China can create its own immigration model, there is no reason to follow EU and the US.

The people entering EU and the US are mostly the bottom of the society which is why they are failing. China should strive only for excellence and for following its own culture not importing culture from other countries
NO I see with my own eye what socalled african student do in China They just good for nothing wasting Chinese tax payer and Beijing compulsive effort to be champion of third world to blame
China did provide scholarship to these African with the intend for them to return to Africa and contribute to their society NOT for the to loiter in Chinese cities and harass women and loafing!

Chinese permanent residence are hard to get sofar only less 2000 issued!
 
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Appix

Senior Member
Registered Member

Taiwan chip maker halts business with US-blacklisted Phytium​

Alchip says it will seek license to supply Chinese supercomputer developer
https%253A%252F%252Fs3-ap-northeast-1.amazonaws.com%252Fpsh-ex-ftnikkei-3937bb4%252Fimages%252F0%252F1%252F8%252F5%252F33585810-1-eng-GB%252F%25E5%2590%258D%25E7%25A7%25B0%25E6%259C%25AA%25E8%25A8%25AD%25E5%25AE%259A%25201.jpg


TAIPEI -- A major Taiwanese chip designer has suspended business with Phytium Technology after Washington blacklisted the Chinese company over alleged military links, underscoring how global companies continue to be caught up in the U.S.-China tech war.

Taipei-listed Alchip Technologies provided chip design services and intellectual property to Phytium and helped it outsource chip production to Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world's biggest contract chipmaker. Phytium develops central processing units for use in supercomputers as well as personal computing devices and is one of the companies at the heart of China's campaign to boost its self-reliance on critical chip components.

"This is the first time a client of ours has been added to the Entity List," Alchip CEO and President Johnny Shen told investors on Tuesday, referring to Washington's trade blacklist. "All of our business with Phytium ... including chip production with [TSMC], has been put on hold."

"I must admit that Alchip is facing a very big challenge," he added.

Alchip's stock plunged by the daily limit of 10% for three consecutive trading days after the U.S. Department of Commerce on April 8
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, including Phytium, to its trade blacklist. Phytium contributed 39% of Alchip's total revenue in 2020.

The Taiwanese company's announcement is another example of the U.S. using export controls to rein in Beijing's technology ambitions by blocking Chinese companies' access even to non-U.S. suppliers.

Shen said the products and services that Alchip provided to Phytium are designed for general, rather than military, use.

"The chips are not capable of operating under extreme conditions," he said. Alchip furthermore has documents signed by Phytium pledging that those products and services will not be used in military applications, he added.

Losing Phytium's business will knock around 25% off Alchip's revenue this year, though it said it could still grow 20% for all of 2021.

The Phytium case will not affect Alchip's dealings with its other Chinese customers, Shen said, from whom he expects rapid growth this year. Nearly all of Alchip's engineering team is based in China.

Alchip said it will seek an export license from the U.S. Bureau of Industry and Security to resume its business relations with Phytium, but said it cannot estimate when or if it will receive such a permit.

The Commerce Department claimed Phytium and the six other companies it added to the Entity List on April 8 are "involved in building supercomputers used by China's military actors, its destabilizing military modernization efforts, and/or weapons of mass destruction programs."

Suppliers must apply for an export license in order to provide these companies with any products containing more than 25% American content -- the so-called de minimis rule -- according to export control lawyers and the BIS.

But that minimum level can be lowered or even scrapped. The U.S. added China's biggest tech company Huawei Technologies to the Entity List in 2019 and cut the applicable de minimis percentage from 25% to 0% last year, in effect forbidding all global suppliers from using any American technology to service Huawei. This tighter rule cut off Huawei's access to vital chip supplies, including from TSMC and Samsung.

Harry Clark, a trade specialist and partner at Orrick, a U.S. law firm, told Nikkei Asia that suppliers should be aware that export control laws can change suddenly. Clients should "establish and rigorously and consistently implement compliance arrangements" to avoid their products end up in Chinese military, he said. "Depending on the circumstances, it may, for example, be advisable to secure diligence input from a capable investigatory firm. ... At the same time, there is not necessarily a need to hold off on supply arrangements that are legally compliant."

China's top chipmaker Semiconductor Manufacturing International Co., Hikvision, the world's biggest surveillance camera maker, and global No.1 commercial drone maker DJI have all been placed on the trade blacklist by the Commerce Department.

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taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
China's progress was definitely stalled by Mao
Well, that is not totally true. China's development stalled at the end of Mao's time, but most of China's heavy industry, military industry and high tech industry were established during his time. Besides these foundations, China's average GDP growth up to 1976 was also much better than any country in comparable size and stage, such as India.

Without Mao's foundation, there won't be today's success.
 

manqiangrexue

Brigadier
Well, that is not totally true. China's development stalled at the end of Mao's time, but most of China's heavy industry, military industry and high tech industry were established during his time. Besides these foundations, China's average GDP growth up to 1976 was also much better than any country in comparable size and stage, such as India.
Well yeah but by stalled, I mean that it could have moved faster than it did had Mao been someone spineless like Jiang Jieshi, not that it was totally stagnant. But like I said, then China would have been put on the path to becoming some vassal state like South Korea instead of one today that can challenge the US for the global throne.
Without Mao's foundation, there won't be today's success.
Abso-frickin-lutely
 

taxiya

Brigadier
Registered Member
NO I see with my own eye what socalled african student do in China They just good for nothing wasting Chinese tax payer and Beijing compulsive effort to be champion of third world to blame
China did provide scholarship to these African with the intend for them to return to Africa and contribute to their society NOT for the to loiter in Chinese cities and harass women and loafing!

Chinese permanent residence are hard to get sofar only less 2000 issued!
That is a statement totally not qualified. I grow up in a university in Beijing that are specialized in education of foreign students. There is no group of students that is outstandingly bad-behaving. In fact, Africans are known to be the best in grasping Mandarin speech, which is one of the desired quality as a student.

I sincerely advice you not to generalize people based on their origin because that is edging to the ism that we should stay away from.
 
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