Chinese semiconductor industry

tphuang said:

I'm just going to step in here and place a stop to this. I understand that people are coming in late and want to keep discussing that, but the conversation was very heated and imo not particularly helpful by the end. I think we should drop it and move on for the sake of this thread

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hvpc said:

@tphuag, With all due respect, I still think it's important I comment on @Weaasel's question. If you still think this is not good for this thread, feel free to remove this post.

I think everybody paid too much attention to litho tool as the bottleneck, and recently are giving lots of attention to the progress domestic WFE suppliers are making on etcher, deposition, wet process equipment, resists, and even EUV light source. I don't think people realize there are still many big gaps to fill in order to break the US restriction on advanced logic/DRAM/3D-NAND IC fabrication. Don't take my word at face value, I encourage you to investigate the list below to validate my concerns.

Potential bottleneck to reach self-sufficiency for Advanced Technology Nodes
Wafer:
Bright field wafer inspection
Dark field wafer inspection
ebeam inspection
diffraction based ADI Overlay metrology
AEI overlay metrology
CD SEM

Reticle:
advanced domestic merchant maskshops
reticle blanks
ebeam reticle writer
reticle etcher (Chrome & MoSi)
reticle blank inspection (should be relatively easy to overcome)
reticle inspection
reticle CD SEM
reticle registration metrology
reticle repair tool
AIMS
pellicles
curvilinear OPC for EUV reticles
multibeam reticle writer for EUV
EUV reticle blanks
EUV pellicle

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find much information on domestic WFE working on the above toolsets for <=16nm logic / <=18nm hp DRAM / >=128L 3D-NAND. Now that I've brought this to everyone' attention, perhaps you all could keep an eye out for relevant news or info. With more people looking it may be faster for us to verify where we sit relative to advanced node needs. Note, we still have access to advanced reticles from the Japanese maskshops, the reticle fabrication equipment I outlined would only come into play as bottleneck if the U.S. blocks sale of advanced reticles to China.

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gelgoog said:

Yes. YMTC likely have higher costs for now. But if the tools are that old, do they have the same operating speed? I know that older litho tools were slower than newer ones with more intense light source and more accurate mechanisms. And since this is about NAND, the speed will also depend a lot on etching rather than litho. As for YMTC using two wafers, most of the industry is expected to do that as well in the future as it is getting next to impossible to continue adding more NAND layers on top of each other.

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gelgoog said:

I also think that a lot of people are assuming the logic layer wafer will take the same amount of tools and time as the actual NAND wafer. That twice the wafers will mean twice the price. I kind of doubt that. The logic wafer is probably a lot faster to process as it has way less layers.

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gelgoog said:

SK Hynix and Samsung also operate NAND fabs in China. So that is unlikely.


If you are talking about the Hua Hong fab close to ICRD in Shanghai that is HLMC aka Shanghai Huali. The companies which make up Hua Hong have been around for longer than SMIC. Hua Hong was founded in 1996. They started out making DRAMs with Japanese NEC then went into the foundry business in 2003. Grace Semiconductor was founded as a foundry in 2000. Grace merged with Hua Hong in 2011. SMIC was founded in 2000.

HLMC manufactures chips at 28 nm in Shanghai. Their website also says they make chips at 22 nm. That requires ArFi machines.

For example this Zhaoxin CPU was supposedly made at HLMC with 28nm process:

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As for ICRD, from what I understand, it is owned by the Shanghai Municipal Government and it collaborates with the fabs in Shanghai.
Much like IMEC in Belgium the ICRD works with the industry to solve problems. If you go to their website they were helping fabs make image sensor chips for example. They help companies design processes as well.

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PopularScience said:

Google is your friend.

ebeaM
东方晶源数年磨剑，成功研发出国内首台电子束缺陷检测设备SEpA-i505，可提供完整的纳米级缺陷检测和分析解决方案。

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hvpc said:

I’m already aware of this, but thanks. Their focus is still mostly with mature nodes.

Let’s monitor its progress and readiness for ADVANCED nodes.

Click to expand...

hvpc said:

@tphuag, With all due respect, I still think it's important I comment on @Weaasel's question. If you still think this is not good for this thread, feel free to remove this post.

I think everybody paid too much attention to litho tool as the bottleneck, and recently are giving lots of attention to the progress domestic WFE suppliers are making on etcher, deposition, wet process equipment, resists, and even EUV light source. I don't think people realize there are still many big gaps to fill in order to break the US restriction on advanced logic/DRAM/3D-NAND IC fabrication. Don't take my word at face value, I encourage you to investigate the list below to validate my concerns.

Potential bottleneck to reach self-sufficiency for Advanced Technology Nodes
Wafer:
Bright field wafer inspection
Dark field wafer inspection
ebeam inspection
diffraction based ADI Overlay metrology
AEI overlay metrology
CD SEM

Reticle:
advanced domestic merchant maskshops
reticle blanks
ebeam reticle writer
reticle etcher (Chrome & MoSi)
reticle blank inspection (should be relatively easy to overcome)
reticle inspection
reticle CD SEM
reticle registration metrology
reticle repair tool
AIMS
pellicles
curvilinear OPC for EUV reticles
multibeam reticle writer for EUV
EUV reticle blanks
EUV pellicle

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find much information on domestic WFE working on the above toolsets for <=16nm logic / <=18nm hp DRAM / >=128L 3D-NAND. Now that I've brought this to everyone' attention, perhaps you all could keep an eye out for relevant news or info. With more people looking it may be faster for us to verify where we sit relative to advanced node needs. Note, we still have access to advanced reticles from the Japanese maskshops, the reticle fabrication equipment I outlined would only come into play as bottleneck if the U.S. blocks sale of advanced reticles to China.

Click to expand...

hvpc said:

@tphuag, With all due respect, I still think it's important I comment on @Weaasel's question. If you still think this is not good for this thread, feel free to remove this post.

I think everybody paid too much attention to litho tool as the bottleneck, and recently are giving lots of attention to the progress domestic WFE suppliers are making on etcher, deposition, wet process equipment, resists, and even EUV light source. I don't think people realize there are still many big gaps to fill in order to break the US restriction on advanced logic/DRAM/3D-NAND IC fabrication. Don't take my word at face value, I encourage you to investigate the list below to validate my concerns.

Potential bottleneck to reach self-sufficiency for Advanced Technology Nodes
Wafer:
Bright field wafer inspection
Dark field wafer inspection
ebeam inspection
diffraction based ADI Overlay metrology
AEI overlay metrology
CD SEM

Reticle:
advanced domestic merchant maskshops
reticle blanks
ebeam reticle writer
reticle etcher (Chrome & MoSi)
reticle blank inspection (should be relatively easy to overcome)
reticle inspection
reticle CD SEM
reticle registration metrology
reticle repair tool
AIMS
pellicles
curvilinear OPC for EUV reticles
multibeam reticle writer for EUV
EUV reticle blanks
EUV pellicle

Maybe it's just me, but I couldn't find much information on domestic WFE working on the above toolsets for <=16nm logic / <=18nm hp DRAM / >=128L 3D-NAND. Now that I've brought this to everyone' attention, perhaps you all could keep an eye out for relevant news or info. With more people looking it may be faster for us to verify where we sit relative to advanced node needs. Note, we still have access to advanced reticles from the Japanese maskshops, the reticle fabrication equipment I outlined would only come into play as bottleneck if the U.S. blocks sale of advanced to China.

Click to expand...

hvpc said:

I’m already aware of this, but thanks. Their focus is still mostly with mature nodes.

Let’s monitor its progress and readiness for ADVANCED nodes.

Click to expand...

tonyget said:

What about software ？

Click to expand...