Chinese semiconductor industry

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Blitzo

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I agree in principle but i don't think this forum is resourced enough to be moderated in the way you're describing. Moving nationalist gloat to a dedicated containment thread is an imperfect solution but one that works given the small mod staff.

I think it's better just to discourage bad takes/grievances/nationalistic gloating in general rather than having a parallel thread for for this specific topic.
Consistent moderation to prevent from happening consistently in this thread may be difficult, but it can be done often enough that people can be aware it is a thing and learn to self regulate.

The imperfect solution is that people can have their posts deleted and/or eventually banned if they consistently post bad takes/grievances/nationalistic gloating especially if that is the only thing they contribute. For those who contribute other things which are more constructive, then they will learn to self regulate.

That's the same way it works across the forum at large including in the military thread categories.
Imagine if we had a dedicated parallel J-20 thread for every bad quality J-20 related article over the years, it would be ridiculous.
 
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I think it's better just to discourage bad takes/grievances/nationalistic gloating in general rather than having a parallel thread for for this specific topic.
Consistent moderation to prevent from happening consistently in this thread may be difficult, but it can be done often enough that people can be aware it is a thing and learn to self regulate.

The imperfect solution is that people can have their posts deleted and/or eventually banned if they consistently post bad takes/grievances/nationalistic gloating especially if that is the only thing they contribute. For those who contribute other things which are more constructive, then they will learn to self regulate.

That's the same way it works across the forum at large including in the military thread categories.
Imagine if we had a dedicated parallel J-20 thread for every bad quality J-20 related article over the years, it would be ridiculous.
The main reason I think a containment thread would be better is that it removes any element of uncertainty from the rules. As it stands posts that are not themselves super politically charged or short on technical details can still get deleted or scolded because of the nationalist emotions they provoke. This leads to people being afraid to ask reasonable questions or post decent articles since it's not possible to predict whether someone will start a flame war over it. I say this not as an insult to moderator capability but to make a point of how hard it is to keep online nationalists at bay without extremely clear rules. So I think a blanket ban on all chest thumping with a dedicated containment thread would work better.

I understand this ultimately isn't my call to make and that this is not a moderation methodology thread, so I'll just leave it there.
 

Blitzo

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The main reason I think a containment thread would be better is that it removes any element of uncertainty from the rules. As it stands posts that are not themselves super politically charged or short on technical details can still get deleted or scolded because of the nationalist emotions they provoke. This leads to people being afraid to ask reasonable questions or post decent articles since it's not possible to predict whether someone will start a flame war over it. I say this not as an insult to moderator capability but to make a point of how hard it is to keep online nationalists at bay without extremely clear rules. So I think a blanket ban on all chest thumping with a dedicated containment thread would work better.

I understand this ultimately isn't my call to make and that this is not a moderation methodology thread, so I'll just leave it there.

I've thought about that as well, but honestly, I think having some fear about posting "decent articles" is probably a good thing, because "decent articles" are few and far between.
That isn't to say someone would receive a warning (let alone a ban) for posting bad quality articles, but if someone were to consistently post such articles only despite multiple prior warnings and deletions then that would be a red flag to us.

There's also the fact that in this thread (and in the forum at large), there are only really some users whose posts in a given thread can be viewed as informative or constructive for the purposes of learning.


It may seem somewhat cold hearted, but I think there are some occasions where some members can actively benefit the forum more by actively posting less because their contributions are either actively neutral at best (taking up space) or actively detrimental at worst (taking up space and also derailing a thread) -- avoiding posting bad quality articles and nationalistic gloating and being afraid to do so would be rather useful.

For example, in this thread I rarely post or contribute, and prefer to observe and read mostly, because I know that for the actual topic at hand my base of knowledge is generally not able to give much information that is of use to anyone.
Even the last few posts from me here are about content/moderation norms that I was tagged for.

If people feel particularly strongly about wanting some sort of "valve" for shitposting then that's something else, but I personally think people should have a bit more fear and discipline instilled with regards to carefully assessing whether an article is worth posting and whether a joke or a gloat or grievance is worth writing to begin with. This isn't Twitter/X or reddit after all.
 

gelgoog

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Even then, it gives an overall summary that is IMO better than what is usually published by Western outlets
Anyway, if he deleted it as you say, then no need to further converse about it I guess
That CSIS article is a retarded collage of things other people wrote done by someone who has no clue about what they are writing about. You can tell the guy has a degree in Political Science. This is just one example of his retarded writing:

"In February 2021, a Chinese news outlet reported that SMIC’s Huahong Factory No. 6 in Shanghai would begin production at 28 nm but that SMIC ultimately planned to upgrade the facility to 14 nm with a production capacity of 40,000 WPM. However, SMIC does have a large and growing set of customers for 28 nm production, so this transition to 7 nm, even if planned, may be well in the future.

Hua Hong Fab 6 in Shanghai is NOT owned by SMIC. Hua Hong is a foundry that is a competitor to SMIC, much like UMC is a competitor to TSMC. And he does not even know such a basic fact. When Hua Hong is a world top #10 foundry company and #2 in China.
And that Hua Hong fab in Shanghai has been operating since 2018 at 28nm. You can even buy chips made in it from Zhaoxin.
 
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tphuang

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What if I create an 'US policy on semiconductors ' separate thread for Greg Allen and Doug Fuller policy bad takes? All the Low effort derailing posts can be moved to that thread, including gloating and geopolitical. This thread can be solely Chinese semiconductor content, with sprinkle of US content if relevant and technical related.

Any thoughts or opposition to this @tphuang @Blitzo @siegecrossbow ?
I must ask what does it do for this forum to get in a debate about bad takes by people online?
Even then, it gives an overall summary that is IMO better than what is usually published by Western outlets

Anyway, if he deleted it as you say, then no need to further converse about it I guess
Let's just stay away from random people takes with no semiconductor background. I remember right after October sanctions, we had several pages of responses to Jordan Sneider saying stupid stuff. What did that do? Nothing.

If you want to gloat or get angry, find a different place to do it
I agree in principle but i don't think this forum is resourced enough to be moderated in the way you're describing. Moving nationalist gloat to a dedicated containment thread is an imperfect solution but one that works given the small mod staff.
Getting angry or excessive celebration doesn't do anything.

I don't think you appreciate how much extra moderation we have to deal with in uncontrolled thread.

Seriously, be appreciative of what we have here. Which is a place we can hopefully learn from each other and people who work in the industry. We are lucky to have people that actually work in the industry or are analysts of the industry. Let's keep the raising the quality
 

tokenanalyst

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What if I create an 'US policy on semiconductors ' separate thread for Greg Allen and Doug Fuller policy bad takes? All the Low effort derailing posts can be moved to that thread, including gloating and geopolitical. This thread can be solely Chinese semiconductor content, with sprinkle of US content if relevant and technical related.

Any thoughts or opposition to this @tphuang @Blitzo @siegecrossbow ?
Why? To discuss the same cliche "trust me bro" quotes on repeat? "China dont have this or that", "It will take China XXX amount of years to achieve Y thing", "MUH national security bro", "Unnamed source in China social media said horrible bad take", "nobody can do it alone" and so on. I am all for a separated thread on the geopolitics of science and technology but not to discuss just these guys.
 

siegecrossbow

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What if I create an 'US policy on semiconductors ' separate thread for Greg Allen and Doug Fuller policy bad takes? All the Low effort derailing posts can be moved to that thread, including gloating and geopolitical. This thread can be solely Chinese semiconductor content, with sprinkle of US content if relevant and technical related.

Any thoughts or opposition to this @tphuang @Blitzo @siegecrossbow ?

Just put it in the Funny Stuff thread.
 

tokenanalyst

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Why? To discuss the same cliche "trust me bro" quotes on repeat? "China dont have this or that", "It will take China XXX amount of years to achieve Y thing", "MUH national security bro", "Unnamed source in China social media said horrible bad take", "nobody can do it alone" and so on. I am all for a separated thread on the geopolitics of science and technology but not to discuss just these guys.
As bad this guy Greg and the others takes are, they are no the worst. The closer to the GOP national security hawks think tankers like the ones from the "China Tech Treat" they by far take the prize for being the absolute worse, horrible horrible bad takes. Their takes are so bad that even they call their BS out inadvertently.

I remember one day that they were having this online meeting, three women and one man and they were discussing the same crap that they talk about all time and the man said "he doesn't believe that YTMC was national security threat because all they do is commodity products", dude, the most awkward silence that I ever heard, these women looked at this man like if they wanted to castrate him, "how dare this man go out of script".

So I dont thing is worth to discuss these people articles and "research", there are good only for knowing what polices could come in the future from the US, because these think tankers have control of the semiconductor-technology narrative now, they give themselves the job of talking for an entire industry and US hawkish politicians are mostly listening to them than the industry.
 

siegecrossbow

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As bad this guy Greg and the others takes are, they are no the worst. The closer to the GOP national security hawks think tankers like the ones from the "China Tech Treat" they by far take the prize for being the absolute worse, horrible horrible bad takes. Their takes are so bad that even they call their BS out inadvertently.

I remember one day that they were having this online meeting, three women and one man and they were discussing the same crap that they talk about all time and the man said "he doesn't believe that YTMC was national security threat because all they do is commodity products", dude, the most awkward silence that I ever heard, these women looked at this man like if they wanted to castrate him, "how dare this man go out of script".

So I dont thing is worth to discuss these people articles and "research", there are good only for knowing what polices could come in the future from the US, because these think tankers have control of the semiconductor-technology narrative now, they give themselves the job of talking for an entire industry and US hawkish politicians are mostly listening to them than the industry.

This is what happens when someone gives a humanities major non-minimum wage job out of the goodness of his or her heart.
 
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