Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

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SSMB-EUV does not use tin drops, it can directly output 5-100nm wavelength. No tin contamination.

Laser decoherence is not difficult.
What do you disagree with? Where did I write SSMB-EUV uses tin drops? why is decoherence necessary?

With all the advantages of a synchotron light source, how much simpler (and cheaper) can the scanners be made? Since an SSMB light source EUVL instrument can do without a number of the complex systems current EUVLs need what would the core components be in a machine using SSMB?
if you can get a mini synchrotron, you can get a SSMB EUV tool up. Full sized synchrotrons can get kW level output. The disadvantage is size. Even mini synchrotrons are still much bigger than current LPP sources, but I actually don't think that's such a dealbreaker.

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5x20 meters mentioned above, but still bigger than 1.5 m OD that the LPP EUV chamber takes (reportedly).

Here's the complexities of the tin method:

1. 100 kW CO2 laser weighing 17k tons.

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2. Droplet targeting mechanism to focus on 20 um sized droplets.

Unique concepts in nozzle design and material purity in sub-20-µm droplet extraction highlight the importance of cooperating closely with droplet generator subsuppliers. The algorithms and control needed to acquire, track and impact these targets at 100 kHz are nontrivial but well along in development and execution.

3. Metal debris mitigation is extremely complicated because there's both ionized tin and neutral vaporized tin.
The unavoidable result of tin ionization is debris created by ions, neutrals and potential tin fragments. Without an effective strategy for avoiding and eliminating debris, the collector mirror quickly becomes contaminated. Its effective lifetime and availability are reduced, and the cost of ownership increases. As little as 1 nm of deposition is estimated to reduce reflectivity by 10 percent, a likely trigger for mirror replacement.

Proper droplet size and an independent prepulse can avoid fragments and maximize ionization. Magnetic ion guiding, now a proven method, is used to mitigate debris. In the EUV chamber’s vacuum environment, ionized tin atoms are guided to the tin catcher by a magnetic field, created by placing superconducting magnets on either side of the chamber (see Figure 4). The magnets are well integrated with the source in terms of both size and safety.

To minimize the deposition of tin neutrals on the mirror, a chemical cleaning process involving a common gas at low pressure is used. Sweeping away debris magnetically, well away from the collector mirror, is not only a low-risk technique but also permits a very small chamber design and a mirror diameter of just 400 mm. There is no need for extra-large vessels or high gas flows to protect the collector mirror, especially in this vacuum area. This type of EUV chamber need stand only about 1.5 m – significantly smaller in dimension and volume than discharge-produced plasma or other LPP designs.

What still has to be kept:

1. Beam transport mechanism.
2. Exposure and mask management mechanism.
3. Wafer stage.
4. Wafer chamber cleanup mechanism (EUV is highly reactive and causes photopolymerization of organic gases even at high vacuum).
 

GodRektsNoobs

Junior Member
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They produced some but not at the “mass produced” level.
【长江存储杀疯了!直接硬刚三星990Pro?爱国者P7000D全面对比评测【宅同学】-哔哩哔哩】
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Judging from the wide distribution and overall performance of YMTC NAND even on 3rd party SSDs, your opinion is wrong. Very wrong.
 

Weaasel

Senior Member
Registered Member
SHIFTING OF GOALPOSTS

The paragraph below is what someone made on another forum. He was responding to someone else commenting about the shifting of goalposts with regards to China's IC chip manufacturing capabilities:


I remember those times too, but I also remember that every time someone made such an outlandish claim, others were quick to correct them that anything that can be done with DUV, like 7nm, would be reachable by China without too much trouble. People have been saying that SMIC would get to 7nm with DUV for years.

This was my response to that comment:


The ones who were making corrections then are not the ones who are shifting the goalposts. The ones shifting the goalposts are the ones who said that China will be stuck at 28 nm, 40 nm, or any other node less find than 7 nm. Now that SMIC has demonstrated that it an produce a good quality chip at 7nm, they are shifting the goal posts to 5 nm, 3 nm, 2 nm, or even 0.1 pm or 0.1 femtometres. They come up with the talk that the yields must be too low to be profitable or that the government is subsidizing SMIC and Huawei. It is clear that the Chinese state has subsidized the development of IC chip and semi conductor manufacturing equipment and materials, and rightly so. Whether it is subdizing the sales of the 7 nm chip in the just released Huawei phone and the phone itself, I don't know, but China has developed 7 nm chips and they are being sold commercially within China via the new Huawei Phone.
 

liospopo

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so you can entirely build the world's most powerful supercomputer on 14nm processs
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That's what I always thought. As long as size & power consumption aren't concerns, you can just keep scaling up your 7 or 14nm fabbed cores.
In a supercomputing system, communication between nodes is much more important than the raw computing power in a single node.
They can get amazing throughput using relatively weak processors.
 

Awenumick

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This article speculates why there is a possibility that the chip might have been fabricated by Huawei itself.
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"
Chatting with friends during lunch, we talked about where Huawei's mobile phone chip 9000s is produced.

At present, the general view is that it comes from SMIC.

This view is not unreasonable. After Liang Mengsong came to SMIC, the manufacturing technology has improved by leaps and bounds. It has already broken through 14nm. And 7nm, through multiple exposure technology, is a matter of course.

But my opinion is completely different.

You know, if SMIC is OEM for Huawei, it will need to consider many things. First of all, SMIC's many manufacturing equipment, including photolithography machines, and materials may face pressure from the United States to cut off supply. In addition, SMIC’s customers are not only domestic customers, but also many European and American customers. These customers are also at risk of being lost.

In short, if SMIC really wants to OEM for Huawei, it really needs to be carefully weighed.

At least for now, I personally feel it is immature.

You may be thinking, wouldn’t SMIC secretly manufacture chips for Huawei? This is even more impossible, because Huawei's 9000s can be produced, so the first thing Lao America will suspect is SMIC, the domestic chip foundry leader, and then conduct in-depth investigations. This cannot be hidden.

Therefore, Huawei’s mobile phone chip 9000s cannot be manufactured by SMIC.

There are rumors on the Internet that it is Xin En. This is impossible because Xin En is mainly a mature process and has not yet reached such an advanced node.

We know that Huawei itself has long been involved in chip manufacturing, and what everyone doesn’t know is that Huawei itself is also working with my country’s scientific research institutions to research lithography machines.

With Huawei's efficiency, even if the semiconductor equipment has not yet been fully produced, it should not be impossible to modify and upgrade existing foreign equipment.

Who exactly makes it for Huawei? At this point, you may have guessed that it is Huawei itself.

In other words, Huawei has become an IDM that can design and manufacture by itself (similar to Intel's model), and is no longer just a fabless company. There is no problem of being stuck in manufacturing.

Unlike Intel, which only has a chip business, Huawei also has many businesses including mobile phones and communication equipment.

Huawei is different from ordinary mobile phone companies. It is more like Apple and has its own mobile phone operating system.

But let alone producing chips, Apple has not yet succeeded in designing 5G baseband chips for mobile phones. Therefore, Huawei can be considered Apple plus Qualcomm.

Let’s put it another way, if Huawei is split up, it can spin off an Apple, a Qualcomm, and an Intel (will it be TSMC in a few years?). Of course, this is mainly about the mobile phone business.

Apple’s market value is close to three trillion U.S. dollars. So, how much do you think Huawei is worth?

In the afternoon, I saw on the Internet that Huawei's chips are produced in Dongguan. Although this news has not been confirmed, it can be regarded as confirming my guess. Because Dongguan is the current location of Huawei's headquarters.

This article is a post-dinner chat and speculation and does not constitute any investment advice. If you think it makes sense, just give it a like. If you have different opinions, you are welcome to leave a comment."
 

superdog

Junior Member
This article speculates why there is a possibility that the chip might have been fabricated by Huawei itself.
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"
Well, the fundamental flaw of such speculation is that the author still thinks like a law-abiding citizen living in a civilized, rule of law society. But in reality, what he commented on is a matter of war, it doesn't play by any rules of justice, fairness, or good faith.

The US sanctioned Huawei because it is a threat to "US National Security". Huawei became a threat because it has got too advanced, too successful, too competitive which threatened the US-led hegemony in some key high-tech industries. The only way for SMIC to be spared from more US sanction is to continue to prove that it is weak and useless. As soon as it develops any advanced production capability that is not under complete control of the US, it will threaten the "US National Security" and therefore subject to additional sanctions. It is irrelevant whether it was SMIC-owned facility or some other entity that produced the new Kirin chips, this only matters in a court, not in a war. We knew that SMIC has been trying to develop more advanced nodes, and it has been revealed that this linage of technology is being used on newer Kirin chips, that is more than enough for SMIC to be put on the same US kill list with Huawei. Anyone that does not foresee this needs to wake the fxxk up and be reminded with this quote from Chairman Mao:

丢掉幻想,准备斗争
Cast Away Illusions, Prepare for Struggle.
 
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tphuang

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This article speculates why there is a possibility that the chip might have been fabricated by Huawei itself.
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"
Chatting with friends during lunch, we talked about where Huawei's mobile phone chip 9000s is produced.

At present, the general view is that it comes from SMIC.

This view is not unreasonable. After Liang Mengsong came to SMIC, the manufacturing technology has improved by leaps and bounds. It has already broken through 14nm. And 7nm, through multiple exposure technology, is a matter of course.

But my opinion is completely different.

You know, if SMIC is OEM for Huawei, it will need to consider many things. First of all, SMIC's many manufacturing equipment, including photolithography machines, and materials may face pressure from the United States to cut off supply. In addition, SMIC’s customers are not only domestic customers, but also many European and American customers. These customers are also at risk of being lost.

In short, if SMIC really wants to OEM for Huawei, it really needs to be carefully weighed.

At least for now, I personally feel it is immature.

You may be thinking, wouldn’t SMIC secretly manufacture chips for Huawei? This is even more impossible, because Huawei's 9000s can be produced, so the first thing Lao America will suspect is SMIC, the domestic chip foundry leader, and then conduct in-depth investigations. This cannot be hidden.

Therefore, Huawei’s mobile phone chip 9000s cannot be manufactured by SMIC.

There are rumors on the Internet that it is Xin En. This is impossible because Xin En is mainly a mature process and has not yet reached such an advanced node.

We know that Huawei itself has long been involved in chip manufacturing, and what everyone doesn’t know is that Huawei itself is also working with my country’s scientific research institutions to research lithography machines.

With Huawei's efficiency, even if the semiconductor equipment has not yet been fully produced, it should not be impossible to modify and upgrade existing foreign equipment.

Who exactly makes it for Huawei? At this point, you may have guessed that it is Huawei itself.

In other words, Huawei has become an IDM that can design and manufacture by itself (similar to Intel's model), and is no longer just a fabless company. There is no problem of being stuck in manufacturing.

Unlike Intel, which only has a chip business, Huawei also has many businesses including mobile phones and communication equipment.

Huawei is different from ordinary mobile phone companies. It is more like Apple and has its own mobile phone operating system.

But let alone producing chips, Apple has not yet succeeded in designing 5G baseband chips for mobile phones. Therefore, Huawei can be considered Apple plus Qualcomm.

Let’s put it another way, if Huawei is split up, it can spin off an Apple, a Qualcomm, and an Intel (will it be TSMC in a few years?). Of course, this is mainly about the mobile phone business.

Apple’s market value is close to three trillion U.S. dollars. So, how much do you think Huawei is worth?

In the afternoon, I saw on the Internet that Huawei's chips are produced in Dongguan. Although this news has not been confirmed, it can be regarded as confirming my guess. Because Dongguan is the current location of Huawei's headquarters.

This article is a post-dinner chat and speculation and does not constitute any investment advice. If you think it makes sense, just give it a like. If you have different opinions, you are welcome to leave a comment."

Can people not post anymore of these horrible takes? If you have real evidence, present it. If you do not, then random takes online aren't worth anything

The main argument that SMIC wouldn't help Huawei because it will be cut off from American equipments is one of the dumbest arguments I've heard.

If you actually bothered to follow what has happened in the past year, you'd see that SMIC is already cut off from all advanced American equipments and tools. In fact, America was already planning to block any ASML lithography machines to SMIC that had any American contents. So, this is already a close door.

If SMIC was still moving forward with American tools in mind, then it is frankly run by some really stupid people. But it is clearly not, so you know they have no illusion about American technology going forward.

Why are you wasting our time with this kind of nonsense?

People on this thread has known this for an entire year.

Why do I still have to rebuke this?
 
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tphuang

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Keep in mind that Huawei's contribution to Chinese semiconductor industry will continue to be very high because it has the engineering and financial resources + the need.

It is likely to a central part of China's effort to commercialize EUV. It will likely have its own advanced fabs down the line using only domestic tools.

Hisilicon is also clearly the #1 chip design studio of China.

More than anything, it has cultivated a domestic supply chain that produces much better camera, speaker & 5G signals than Apple. Being forced to go purely domestic has done wonders for China's supply chain management and such.

But as many of us stated, you need to buy equipments and train work force to do high volume production that SMIC is currently doing. If Huawei is working hard on validating domestic tools for logic & memory chip production, that is a great thing it is doing. But don't confuse getting a single production line working with 20k wpm of logic chip or 50k wpm of 128-layer 3D Nand.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
Interesting articles and video about SSMB Laser project.

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I initally thought the idea of using a synchotron or a cyclotron as a EUV light source for lithography was something unrealistic, uneconomical and wishful thinking.

But , considering the price of each one of ASML's EUV machines, and the fact that once installed the litography machines need not be moved across oceans, in fact, need not be moved at all, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.

IF, and this is a big IF, you can use the synchotron light source for say 10 different EUV machines, I believe it does make a lot of sense.

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I wonder how many machines could be appended to such beast.
For clarification, this synchrotron in the last link is not related to SSMB. It’s a facility that was already planned before the bans for research purposes.
 
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