Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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yes, i believe they are tackling 14nm FinFET right after 28nm at JHICC at the moment. They are skipping 20nm node just like SMIC did. I can confirm Huawei is working on qualifying domestic non-litho equipments at 14nm node.

But I never hear Huawei or JHICC use the N/N+1/N+2 nomenclature. They simply use the node name. It could be what observers are using to describe what Huawei is working on.

With that said, Huawei do not have their own fab nor meaningful capacity at the moment at these advanced logic nodes. Any claim that they built their own Kirin9000s at their own fab is just ridiculous and insult to SMIC.
Btw, this actually is the best thing huawei could do for China's semiconductor industry. It has a lot of resources and has done a lot of research. It takes a long time to build up capacity. In the mean time, if it can help smic (who I would imagine has less resources) to qualify domestic tools for 14nm, that would allow smic to expand 7nm production more quickly down the line. Smic can keep trying to push the edge and experiment with more dense process.

I guess Huawei will probably get to hvm with 14nm before hlmc does then
 

Eventine

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EUV is highly profitable business,if some country can do it,they would have done it already.
Is it? The entire EUV industry is estimated to be a $5 to $10 billion dollars industry in 2023. By contrast, Apple's revenue in 2022 was ~$400 billion dollars. That's just one company. Google, Amazon, etc. are all in the hundreds of billions of dollars. EUV is not even close and neither is ASML as a whole.

The reason EUV is considered so difficult to get into is not just because of the physics, engineering, etc. involved. Even more importantly, it's because it's a niche industry with a high barrier of entry. You need to spend billions of dollars up front for the chance to... make billions of dollars? That's a terrible business and it's the reason the industry is a monopoly - the market for EUV machines is so small and the barrier of entry so high that it makes no business sense for anyone else to invest.

If EUV was a lucrative market worth hundreds of billions of dollars, companies like Google, Apple, etc. would've poached the lead engineers from ASML (you know they can do that, right?) and made their own EUV machines by now. The reason EUV is a monopoly isn't because ASML is so much superior to everyone else. It's because the market only has enough room for one ASML.
 

tonyget

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The Pengteng ecosystem that he mentioned is the ARM one. That's a partnership between Huawei and Phytium. The last paragraph in your article talks about it. I think in the sentence you highlighted the translator has translated Pengteng as Pentium.

Well,there is alot more ARM processor makers in China other than Huawei and Phytium. And what about Loongson?He didn't mention Loongson
 

tonyget

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Is it? The entire EUV industry is estimated to be a $5 to $10 billion dollars industry in 2023. By contrast, Apple's revenue in 2022 was ~$400 billion dollars. That's just one company. Google, Amazon, etc. are all in the hundreds of billions of dollars. EUV is not even close and neither is ASML as a whole.

The reason EUV is considered so difficult to get into is not just because of the physics, engineering, etc. involved. Even more importantly, it's because it's a niche industry with a high barrier of entry. You need to spend billions of dollars up front for the chance to... make billions of dollars? That's a terrible business and it's the reason the industry is a monopoly - the market for EUV machines is so small and the barrier of entry so high that it makes no business sense for anyone else to invest.

If EUV was a lucrative market worth hundreds of billions of dollars, companies like Google, Apple, etc. would've poached the lead engineers from ASML (you know they can do that, right?) and made their own EUV machines by now. The reason EUV is a monopoly isn't because ASML is so much superior to everyone else. It's because the market only has enough room for one ASML.

Can Google, Apple make EUV all by themself?I don't think so. If they do actually decide to make EUV,they would have to source necessary components from all over the globe just like ASML. And that still validate my original statement,which is EUV is much harder than jet engine,because no single country can make it as of now
 

tonyget

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Huawei Xu Zhijun: Abandoning illusions and using domestic chips on a large scale can promote the progress of the entire industry

Jiweiwang News, on September 15, at the 2023 World Computing Conference, Xu Zhijun, Vice Chairman and Rotating Chairman of Huawei Technologies Co., Ltd., pointed out in his speech that the United States’ containment of China will cause us to face many challenges in the long term and we must abandon our illusions.

Xu Zhijun said that more than 600 Chinese entities have been included in the U.S. Entity List, and China's computing industry is moving forward under continued strengthening pressure, from design tools, materials, manufacturing equipment to chip products, and even software, algorithms and applications. All have been affected.

"In this case, a real problem is that we will face many challenges in the long term. On the one hand, China's semiconductor manufacturing technology will be in a state of lagging behind and catching up for a long time. Huawei believes that this state will last for a long time, because only Only advanced processes can produce more advanced chips. On the other hand, due to U.S. export controls, it is challenging or impossible to obtain advanced chips or advanced computing systems. From our many years of experience and judgment of the future "Looking at it, this is long-term." He stressed, "Don't have any illusions about the future."

Xu Zhijun also pointed out that although there is still a gap between domestically produced chips, servers, and PCs compared to foreign countries, if they are not used, this gap will always exist and they will always fall behind. However, if domestic products are used on a large scale, it is possible to stimulate and promote the technological progress and product progress of domestic manufacturers, and then slowly catch up with the advanced level. Only by using it on a large scale can it be possible to drive the progress and development of the entire computing industry, drive the progress of CPUs, drive the progress of servers based on domestic CPUs, and drive the progress of the entire industry on this basis.

华为徐直军:抛弃幻想,大规模使用国产芯片才能推动整个产业进步​


集微网消息,9月15日,2023世界计算大会上,华为技术有限公司副董事长、轮值董事长徐直军在演讲中指出,美国对中国的遏制将使我们长期面临很多挑战,要抛弃幻想。

徐直军表示,目前已经有600多个中国实体被列入美国实体清单,中国的计算产业正在持续加强的压力下前行,从设计工具、材料、制造设备到芯片产品,乃至软件、算法以及应用等都受到了影响。

“在这种情况下,一个现实的问题就是我们将长期面临很多挑战。一方面,中国半导体制造工艺将在相当长时间处于落后以及追赶的状态,华为认为这个状态要持续相当长时间,因为只有先进的工艺才能生产出更先进的芯片。另一方面,由于美国的出口管制,使得获取先进芯片或先进计算系统存在挑战,或者说根本不可能获得。从我们这么多年的经验和对未来的判断来看,这是长期的。”他强调,“对于未来不要抱有任何幻想。”

徐直军还指出,尽管国内生产的芯片、服务器、PC机,相比国外还有差距,但如果不去用,这个差距永远存在,永远落后。但如果大规模使用国产产品,就可能拉动和推动国产厂商的技术进步、产品进步,然后慢慢追上先进水平。只有大规模使用,才有可能拉动整个计算产业的进步和发展,拉动CPU的进步,拉动基于国产CPU的服务器的进步,并以此为基础拉动整个产业的进步。
 

tphuang

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Well,there is alot more ARM processor makers in China other than Huawei and Phytium. And what about Loongson?He didn't mention Loongson
Why would he mention loongson? He says these things for Huawei's benefit.

October sanction was the best thing for Huawei because now the entire Chinese industry is sanctioned and no longer have any illusion of working with foreign tech.
 

dingyibvs

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Can Google, Apple make EUV all by themself?I don't think so. If they do actually decide to make EUV,they would have to source necessary components from all over the globe just like ASML. And that still validate my original statement,which is EUV is much harder than jet engine,because no single country can make it as of now
I think you need to re-read his post. He's saying that Google, Apple, etc. can if they want to, but they don't want to because it's not worth it.
 

Blitzo

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I think the question is "is it more beneficial for SIOM/CIOMP to infringe on ASML's EUV IP to rapidly produce EUVs and maintain Huawei's competitive over the next 3-5+ years?"

OR "should SIOM/CIOMP invest the time in developing their own unique technology, which would delay production but potentially lead to long-term LPP EUV exports or EUV fabs abroad?"

Personally, I think in the context of this technology race, we urgently need EUV capabilities, preferably yesterday. ASML EUV IP became irrelevant once they excluded themselves from China market. Future EUV exports or EUV fabs are not a concern right now, and everyone is on-shoring now. OBOR or BRI members can benefit from 90nm-DUV fabs with SMEE equipment, but the crown jewels (EUV fabs) should be kept on the mainland. Taiwan's EUV fab off-shoring strategy is due to island's unique security situation, more of a survival technique in exchange for security protection than a model for emulation.

I think that is the wrong phrasing of the question, because it portrays the situation as a false dichotomy of "reverse engineer/infringe patents and you get EUV lithography faster but you can't export them due to IP reasons" versus "go domestic IP and you get EUV lithography slower, but you can export them".

My view is that regardless of which choice they go with for LPP EUV, it's going to take about the same amount of time anyway, simply because the main rate limiting step(s) with this tech stack isn't "IP" but rather it's the engineering, testing, verification and organizational aspects of it that will take the most time to hash out.

To quote myself in a previous post (28,499):
"my personal feeling is that I do not think your suggestion would have been much meaningfully faster and if anything may have resulted in dividing of efforts, resources and money to two parallel projects. Heck it is even possible that a reverse engineered approach could actually be slower than a domestic approach.
Regardless of the source of IP, to actually implement, test and produce a product to be viable for use needs engineering effort, money and organisational drive. There are no shortcuts in that regard, and those all need time.
"

So to circle back to the "export potential" question for a Chinese LPP EUV, my view is that regardless of which route they're going to take with LPP EUV, it's not going to arrive "yesterday" -- people should probably take a step back and recognize how impressive it is that China will probably have working LPP EUV by the end of this decade.
Therefore if it is settled that LPP EUV is going to take ages regardless which route it takes, we can actually look at one of the less important questions for the longer term -- i.e.: will they perhaps have a desire to export LPP EUV into the very long term future (10+ years beyond).

My view for the future export question is also that regardless of which route they take (i.e.: domestic or reverse engineered IP), they will probably still try to export them in the long term:
- if they pursue a domestic IP option, then they can export it without issue
- if they pursue a reverse engineered IP option, it still makes sense in the future to change out the reverse engineered IP components with domestic IP components anyhow, which will enable export

This isn't to say that the future LPP EUV market internationally is something that should be a primary concern.



Or to summarize the entire "domestic IP vs reverse engineered IP" thing in terms of time and export viability:
- both domestic IP and reverse engineered IP options are likely to take significant amounts of time due to having common key rate limiting steps that are much more significant and complex than merely IP
- both domestic IP and reverse engineered IP options are likely to have viable long term potential for export; domestic IP option being exportable without needing changes, and reverse engineered IP option being exportable as new subcomponents are developed with time (for domestic use) that are likely to replace reverse engineered IP with domestic IP anyway thus allowing export
 

tonyget

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I think you need to re-read his post. He's saying that Google, Apple, etc. can if they want to, but they don't want to because it's not worth it.

He says Google and Apple can poach lead engineers from ASML,but that doesn't make any difference,since ASML itself doesn't make all components. So the short answer is no, Google and Apple can not make EUV by themself. Heck Apple cannot even make baseband chip despite their desire to break free from Qualcomm.
 

Schmoe

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Does anybody have a good link at their fingertips that walks through the semiconductor manufacturing process? Obviously, I could do an internet search, but if someone has a web-site in mind that provides a good summary that would save me some trouble.

I see a lot of reference to "tools", which appears to be distinct from the lithography machine itself. It sounds like the predominant "tool" makers are US entities including LAM but China has several promising entrants. Likewise, what are "etching" machines?

Some of the topics here would make more sense to a layperson like me if I had a better understanding of the manufacturing process.
 
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