Chinese semiconductor industry

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Eventine

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He says Google and Apple can poach lead engineers from ASML,but that doesn't make any difference,since ASML itself doesn't make all components. So the short answer is no, Google and Apple can not make EUV by themself. Heck Apple cannot even make baseband chip despite their desire to break free from Qualcomm.
Google, Apple, etc. wouldn't need to make EUV by itself any more than ASML does. They could buy mirrors from Zeiss (a more diversified company), photo resists from Japan, etc. You're forgetting your initial argument, which is that EUV production must be super super super difficult because only ASML can do it in the entire world.

EUV production is indeed difficult, but it's not because ASML is so much better than everyone else. It's because of the nature of a niche industry. A competitor to ASML from the West doesn't need to recreate the entire supply chain - it'd just need to recreate ASML. But nobody is doing it because the business doesn't make sense.
 

ansy1968

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N+1 and N+2 are specific processes names by SMIC. If Huawei had their own in-house process it wouldn’t be called N+1 or N+2. There are not universal designations. I think the evidence that Huawei fabbed their own chips is extremely weak. We would have seen a whole lot more evidence that this was happening in facilities construction and equipment purchases. You can’t hide the activity of building a fab if you’re producing the quantity of chips Huawei would need to supply their phones. There likely wouldn’t even be expansion capacity on demand to increase orders if they were doing this all by themselves.
Or sir they do the packaging by themselves?
 

Phead128

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Did the US forbid Japan making EUV machines? I don't think so

You are intentionally ignoring economic considerations. The EUV market consists of the "Big 3 chipmakers" (TSMC, Samsung, and Intel) and memory makers SK Hynix and Micron. Due to geopolitical influence, the Big 3 consortium signed up for ASML's "Customer Co -investment Program" and invested $6B into EUV R&D in exchange for 23% ownership stake in ASML. These ensured the Big 3 as early adopters of ASML EUV, and guaranteed early sales from Big 3 which greatly influenced the direction of the industry. The market doesn't exist for Nikon and Canon to recoup the capital investments needed for EUV, so it made no business sense to pursue EUV.

It's not a technology barrier, it's a business barrier. There is only 150 EUV sold since 2017, mostly to the TSMC, Intel, and Samsung.
 

tphuang

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from the guy who broke news on kirin chips

This is interesting. so oppo coming out with new smart watch with eSIM, circular OLED screen?, Snapdragon W5 & BES2700 chip. Can do ECG, oxygen level & various health related functionality. Looks very good

chip component is interesting for me.
Snapdragon W5+ uses 4nm SoC
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here is 恒玄 (Bestechnic)'s BES 2700 uses 12nm process
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Huawei uses for its ear bud
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so I had always assumed that for wearables like watches & earbuds & glasses, HW could just use 12nm process. But based on Snapdragon W5 using 4nm process, the difference in power consumption may become an issue.

If Kirin A2 (or whatever the next gen wearable SoC for Huawei is called) uses 7nm process, this would squeeze even further into Huawei's requirement for SMIC 7nm production.
i'm really curious what this new SoC will look like, because Snapdragon W5 Gen 1 (used by Oppo here) is a combo of 4nm & 22nm & PMIC
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It's pretty interesting that you need a 90mm^2 size chip with good portion of that as 4nm process

On BES2700
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值得关注的是,2022年恒玄科技顺利量产BES2700系列的可穿戴主控芯片,并导入华为、和 vivo等品牌客户的旗舰TWS耳机及智能手表产品。该产品一定程度上改善了恒玄科技业务结构,同时公司称对市场下行起到了一定缓冲。
BES2700 became wearable main control SoC for Huawei, Vivo & other customers TWS ear bud & watch products.

According to this
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BES2700BP 和 BES2700iBP,恒玄主控芯片具有强大的AI算力和音频能力,采用先进制程、低功耗,全集成,支持基于JS 的APP生态, 赋能智能穿戴应用。
has strong AI computation & sound quality
恒玄科技专注于AloT SoC领域,主营业务涵盖智能可穿戴设备(智能手表、AR眼镜、TWS耳机、头戴式耳机等)、智能音箱、智能家居三大板块,历时七年不断投入研发与技术创新,取得了多项业界第一:第一颗集成混合降噪 TWS SoC;第一颗单芯片智能音箱SoC(RTOS);第一颗单芯片运动手表(RTOS);第一颗 12nm 制程运动手表 SoC(RTOS);全球TWS手机品牌市场份额第一。
Interesting, they produce SoC for many wearables including smart watch, AR glasses, TWD ear buds, headseat, smart sound system, smart home
 

jfcarli

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Interesting articles and video about SSMB Laser project.

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I initally thought the idea of using a synchotron or a cyclotron as a EUV light source for lithography was something unrealistic, uneconomical and wishful thinking.

But , considering the price of each one of ASML's EUV machines, and the fact that once installed the litography machines need not be moved across oceans, in fact, need not be moved at all, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.

IF, and this is a big IF, you can use the synchotron light source for say 10 different EUV machines, I believe it does make a lot of sense.

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I wonder how many machines could be appended to such beast.
 

pbd456

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Interesting articles and video about SSMB Laser project.

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I initally thought the idea of using a synchotron or a cyclotron as a EUV light source for lithography was something unrealistic, uneconomical and wishful thinking.

But , considering the price of each one of ASML's EUV machines, and the fact that once installed the litography machines need not be moved across oceans, in fact, need not be moved at all, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.

IF, and this is a big IF, you can use the synchotron light source for say 10 different EUV machines, I believe it does make a lot of sense.

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I wonder how many machines could be appended to such beast.
This has been discussed a thousand page back.
 

FairAndUnbiased

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Interesting articles and video about SSMB Laser project.

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I initally thought the idea of using a synchotron or a cyclotron as a EUV light source for lithography was something unrealistic, uneconomical and wishful thinking.

But , considering the price of each one of ASML's EUV machines, and the fact that once installed the litography machines need not be moved across oceans, in fact, need not be moved at all, it starts to make a hell of a lot of sense.

IF, and this is a big IF, you can use the synchotron light source for say 10 different EUV machines, I believe it does make a lot of sense.

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I wonder how many machines could be appended to such beast.
I don't blame you, the headlines make it seem like there's only 1 true correct path, but that's all post-hoc justification.

What exactly is economical about using a 100 kW CO2 laser that weighs 10000+ kgs alone to shoot liquid tin droplets in vacuum that's in another 10+ ton system? liquids and vacuum doesn't mix well, exploding metallic liquids even less so, so you need a very sophisticated metal management system to handle the outgassing and cleanup of lenses. And that's not even getting to the optics transmission train, wafer stage, etc.

Just a single EUV instrument can buy the entire Shanghai Synchrotron.

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The particle accelerator cost 1.2 billion
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176 million). It is China's biggest light facility.
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It is located under a building with a futuristic snail-shaped roof.

The difference is the Shanghai Synchrotron has 16 beamlines, not 1, and are energy tunable.

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Soft-X ray interference lithography (XIL) is a newly developed technique for production of periodic nano-structures with resolution below 100 nm. The technique is based on coherent radiation obtained from undulators at synchrotron radiation (85-150 eV). Because of its small wavelength (typical value: 13.4 nm) and practical absence of the proximity effect, high density resolution lines/dots with high density can be afforded. The throughput of this parallel exposing method is much higher than that of the serial electron-beam lithography. Interference schemes based on diffraction (gratings) optics have been constructed at BL08U1-B beamline in SSRF. Both one-dimensional and two-dimensional patterns such as arrays of dots have been achieved. XIL is used in a growing number of applications; examples include fabrication of self-assembly templates, magnetic nano-dot arrays and nano-optical components.

Note that they're using EUV interference lithography here. Interference lithography is maskless. Wave interference is only meaningful with coherent light. Regular EUV is not a laser. It uses a laser as the energy source for Sn droplet excitation, but the EUV itself, emitted by the Sn droplets, is isotropic.

Synchrotrons produce coherent EUV, which opens up tons of possibilities that don't exist with incoherent LPP EUV. It's not a mere economic advantage (more beamlines for the price of 1), it's a technical one.

And this is not even a synchrotron optimized for EUV production, it just happens to have this capability at 1 beamline station.
 

measuredingabens

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I don't blame you, the headlines make it seem like there's only 1 true correct path, but that's all post-hoc justification.

What exactly is economical about using a 100 kW CO2 laser that weighs 10000+ kgs alone to shoot liquid tin droplets in vacuum that's in another 10+ ton system? liquids and vacuum doesn't mix well, exploding metallic liquids even less so, so you need a very sophisticated metal management system to handle the outgassing and cleanup of lenses. And that's not even getting to the optics transmission train, wafer stage, etc.

Just a single EUV instrument can buy the entire Shanghai Synchrotron.

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The difference is the Shanghai Synchrotron has 16 beamlines, not 1, and are energy tunable.

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Note that they're using EUV interference lithography here. Interference lithography is maskless. Wave interference is only meaningful with coherent light. Regular EUV is not a laser. It uses a laser as the energy source for Sn droplet excitation, but the EUV itself, emitted by the Sn droplets, is isotropic.

Synchrotrons produce coherent EUV, which opens up tons of possibilities that don't exist with incoherent LPP EUV. It's not a mere economic advantage (more beamlines for the price of 1), it's a technical one.

And this is not even a synchrotron optimized for EUV production, it just happens to have this capability at 1 beamline station.
With all the advantages of a synchotron light source, how much simpler (and cheaper) can the scanners be made? Since an SSMB light source EUVL instrument can do without a number of the complex systems current EUVLs need what would the core components be in a machine using SSMB?
 

Wintermute

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I don't blame you, the headlines make it seem like there's only 1 true correct path, but that's all post-hoc justification.

What exactly is economical about using a 100 kW CO2 laser that weighs 10000+ kgs alone to shoot liquid tin droplets in vacuum that's in another 10+ ton system? liquids and vacuum doesn't mix well, exploding metallic liquids even less so, so you need a very sophisticated metal management system to handle the outgassing and cleanup of lenses. And that's not even getting to the optics transmission train, wafer stage, etc.

Just a single EUV instrument can buy the entire Shanghai Synchrotron.

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The difference is the Shanghai Synchrotron has 16 beamlines, not 1, and are energy tunable.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

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Note that they're using EUV interference lithography here. Interference lithography is maskless. Wave interference is only meaningful with coherent light. Regular EUV is not a laser. It uses a laser as the energy source for Sn droplet excitation, but the EUV itself, emitted by the Sn droplets, is isotropic.

Synchrotrons produce coherent EUV, which opens up tons of possibilities that don't exist with incoherent LPP EUV. It's not a mere economic advantage (more beamlines for the price of 1), it's a technical one.

And this is not even a synchrotron optimized for EUV production, it just happens to have this capability at 1 beamline station.
SSMB-EUV does not use tin drops, it can directly output 5-100nm wavelength. No tin contamination.

Laser decoherence is not difficult.
 
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