Chinese semiconductor industry

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ansy1968

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My question: why ASML cannot develop an EUV machine without US technology? If they could, they would be able to supply EUV to anybody they like.
Bro they received money from the US gov't via Sematech Consortium, within that group include TSMC, ASML, Intel and other American tech company. The consortium was form to challenge the Japanese semiconductor dominance during the 80's and 90's, Cymer the American company provide the power source, so the US hold sway whom to sell and not.

SEMATECH was conceived in 1986, formed in 1987, and began operating in
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,
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in 1988
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as a partnership between the United States government and 14 U.S.-based semiconductor manufacturers to solve common manufacturing problems and regain competitiveness for the U.S.
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that had been surpassed by Japanese industry in the mid-1980s.
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SEMATECH was funded over five years by public subsidies coming from the
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via the
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(DARPA) for a total of $500 million.

Following a determination by SEMATECH Board of Directors to eliminate matching funds from the U.S. government after 1996,
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the organization's focus shifted from the U.S. semiconductor industry to the larger international semiconductor industry, abandoning the initial U.S. government-initiative. Its members represent about half of the worldwide chip market. In late 2015, SEMATECH transferred the Critical Materials Council (CMC), a membership group of semiconductor fabricators, to TECHCET CA LLC, an advisory service firm dedicated to providing supply-chain and market information on electronic materials. This group of procurement and quality managers continues to focus on anticipating and remedying materials supply-chain issues and focusing on best practices. The CMC is now an integral part of TECHCET's business and provides guidance on their work of Critical Materials Reports and CMC Conference activities.

Technology focus[
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]​

SEMATECH conducts research on the technical challenges and costs associated with developing new materials, processes, and equipment for semiconductor manufacturing. Advanced technology programs focus on
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including
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blank and
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development, materials and emerging technologies for device structures, metrology, manufacturing, and environment and safety issues.
 

CMP

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Not all the optimistic takes and predictions here are going to be correct, but there's definitely lots of news posted here that's being ignored elsewhere, enough to make some people uncomfortable with their priors. ;)

A small dose of skepticism in life is a healthy thing.
Reality is not optimistic or pessimistic. Reality is just what the facts turn out to be. Seeing rapid signs of progress and deciding the weight of evidence suggests it's unlikely to be vaporware is not the same as being optimistic. Let's not forget that a lot of people believed SMIC itself to be a Taiwanese con directed at Chinese capital not too many years ago. Instead, it turns out it's just that technology takes time and effort to work out, and upper management egos can pull a company in two different directions when their own interests collide (limited budget to go around being one likely driver of this). At the end of the day, both directions had merit. One wanted to scale up 28nm because the lion's share of profits are in these older chips. The other wanted to focus resources on reaching the leading edge. This also makes sense because the lower yield more capital intensive chips to produce can be the bridge to monopoly or joining the duopoly/oligopoly, and hence extortionate profits.
 
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tokenanalyst

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My question: why ASML cannot develop an EUV machine without US technology? If they could, they would be able to supply EUV to anybody they like.
I think ASML was almost able to ship EUV tools to China because the threshold of US technology was not high enough to trigger export controls but the Trump administration was able to convince the Dutch goverment to stop the shipments.
 

CMP

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This should confirm that it is old stockpile. Now it is up to CXMT to get DDR5 ready.
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Chip tech is obviously not my field, so I wanted to ask if anyone can ELI5 why they are using SKH instead of YMTC? Is YMTC's a different kind of memory that is not suitable for cellphones? That should be impossible since they almost had an Apple deal before USG screwed them. So is it maybe that they are still in the process of adapting to US sanctions? Or is it just cost? Was there a massive glut of older cheaper SKH chips available in China, so it was purely a financial calculation for Huawei?
 

huemens

Junior Member
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Chip tech is obviously not my field, so I wanted to ask if anyone can ELI5 why they are using SKH instead of YMTC? Is YMTC's a different kind of memory that is not suitable for cellphones? That should be impossible since they almost had an Apple deal before USG screwed them. So is it maybe that they are still in the process of adapting to US sanctions? Or is it just cost? Was there a massive glut of older cheaper SKH chips available in China, so it was purely a financial calculation for Huawei?

YMTC makes NAND flash chips which are used for storage. They don't make DRAM. YMTC is now on par with other companies on NAND and was certified by Apple and they used it in few devices before the idea was dropped due to US pressure. YMTC chips have also been used by some Huawei phones.
The most promising Chinese company that makes RAM is CXMT.
SK Hynix makes both of these types of chips and Huawei likely have old stockpiles from them.
 

pecopls

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Anyone have any ideas about HBM memory at YMTC? If Huawei is banned from buying HBM overseas, where can they get it from?
 

hvpc

Junior Member
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YMTC makes NAND flash chips which are used for storage. They don't make DRAM. YMTC is now on par with other companies on NAND and was certified by Apple and they used it in few devices before the idea was dropped due to US pressure. YMTC chips have also been used by some Huawei phones.
The most promising Chinese company that makes RAM is CXMT.
SK Hynix makes both of these types of chips and Huawei likely have old stockpiles from them.
CXMT and YMTC are behind the memory leaders.

CXMT’s leading edge DRAM has about half the bit density of the current leading edge DRAM. CXMT offers only DDR4 and LPDDR4 while the big-3 of memory fabs offers DDR5, LPDDR5, GDDR6, and HBM3. LPDDR5 supports larger capacity at higher voltage while having way faster data rate than LPDDR4.

YMTC never mass produce the 232L 3D-NAND. Last October’s US sanction pretty put a stop to them pulling even or go ahead of the leaders. They are stuck producing mostly 128L 3D NAND UFS3.1 while others have all made more progress /pulled ahead producing 2xxL 3D NAND with UFS4.0. UFS4.0 is twice as fast as UFS3.1.

the faster and larger capacity DRAM and Flash offered by non-indigenous fabs are why Huawei had to use Hynix DRAM and Flash memory.

this may not be what people want to hear or wants to admit, but this is the reality we have to face at the moment.
Anyone have any ideas about HBM memory at YMTC? If Huawei is banned from buying HBM overseas, where can they get it from?
CXMT is still trying to work on offering the DDR5 and LPDDR5 DRAM for PC/mobile applications. They are far from offering HBM for more advanced applications like GPU. Huawei will not be able to officially acquire LPDDR5 for their iPhone until CXMT is able to produce e them in mass.
 
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