Chinese semiconductor industry

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tphuang

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Earlier this year, Huawei said it has developed EDA that covered up to 14nm. But we know that Huawei can domestic design chips at 7nm node due to Kirin 9000s, there is also foundry support for the EDA.

Will other Chinese chip maker that plan to fab the products in china ditch western eda to save money? How big a saving it will be?
Bro I can't find the attached post from A-SET circa 2020 in this thread, he described the development of SSA800, A DPP powered EUVL and Huawei having develop a 7nm EDA, hopefully some of our esteem members is kind enough to repost it.
Huawei is not the entire Chinese semi industry!

Empyrean said earlier this year their product covers the entire 7nm EDA spectrum, but people just forget about it and attribute everything to Huawei.

Just stop it. Huawei is not fabbing its own chips. It's relying on SMIC and other chipmakers
 

latenlazy

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For those interested in analysis of technical data, please read on, otherwise you can skip this post.

I just read the latest TechInsight report on teardown of Kirin9000s. It looks like the chip is just a tad worse than I had thought. Many on social media had assumed this chip to be similar to tsmc 7nm+ with transistor density of 114ish MTx/mm^2. But the dimension on Kirin9000s with SMIC N+2 is a bit larger, so the cell area would be larger, and thus lower transistor density than tsmc 7+nm process..

Some critical dimensions measured and provided by TechInsight:
- Hi36A0 GFCV120 die size: 10.66 x 10.39 mm (110.8 mm^2)
- fin pitch: 33nm
- CPP: 63nm w/ SDB
- M2: 42nm
- Standard Cell height: 252nm (6-track)

How does this compared to N+1 & tsmc 7nm+?
tsmc 7nm+SMIC N+2tsmc 7nmN+1
fin pitch30nm33nm30nm37nm
CPP57nm w/ SDB63nm w/ SDB57nm w/ DDB63nm w/ SDB
M240nm42nm40nm44nm
cell height240nm252nm240nm264nm
M Tx/mm^2113.9est. <10496.589

I had previously indicated N+2 process would be better than tsmc 7nm but worse than tsmc 7nm+. But the Metal2 (M2) dimension on SMIC N+2 based on TechInsight's analysis is 5% larger than my assumption. The N+2 Contact Poly Pitch (CPP) is also 5% larger than my assumption. Taken CD sizes provided by TechInsight, the cell area would reduce and Transistor density increase by ~15% from N+1. So rough estimate, N+2 would have Trasistor density of ~104M Tx/mm^2 ish. Not exactly at tsmc 7nm+ level, but close enough.

Anyhow, this is comparison of SMIC's process capabilities in terms of PPACt on a transistor level. N+2 will be slightly inferior to tsmc 7nm+ in terms of Performance, Power consumption, Area, and perhaps cost. Slight improvements or differentiations could still be made through optimization of chip design (e.g. better designed chip with N+2/104 MT/mm^2 process may yield similar performance as a typical design on tsmc 7nm+/113.9 MT/mm^2). But fundamentally, you will not expect the N+2 to reach the level of tsmc 5nm which would have better PPACt due to smaller dimensions, higher transistor density, etc.

Note: all info except SMIC N+2 above could be found and verified on websites like wikichip.org; semiwiki.com, and even articles. info for N+2 I obtained through TechInsight's report.
Eh, I’m going to nitpick a bit more here and point out that you can’t get a clean power consumption and performance comparison simply out of density comparisons. The transistor design itself matters in parameters like voltage swing performance, drive current performance, current leakage, etc. and those are determined by more than feature size measurements.
 

tphuang

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I added info for tsmc 5nm. Despite many sources that indicated Kirin9000S is not as good as Kirin9000 in term of Performance & Power consumption, there were still a few on SDF that continued to mistakenly claim otherwise. Below table should clarify why Kirin9000 built on a 5nm process is expected to do better on PP portion of PPA than Kirin9000S.

Performance: Kirin9000S has lower clock speed than 9000
Power: Kirin9000S necessitate bigger heat dissipation than Kirin9000

tsmc 5nm (EUV)tsmc 7nm+ (EUV)SMIC N+2tsmc 7nmSMIC N+1
fin pitch25nm30nm33nm30nm37nm
Contact Poly Pitch50nm57nm w/ SDB63nm w/ SDB57nm w/ DDB63nm w/ SDB
Metal 230nm40nm42nm40nm44nm
cell height180nm240nm252nm240nm264nm
M Tx/mm^2138.2113.9est. <10496.589
Kirin 9000Kirin 9000S
i mean actual real world testing of the phones demonstrated that Kirin9000S had equal or slightly better power consumption than Kirin9000.

That just means Hisilicon has made huge improvements to the architecture of the CPU

5nm N+2 DUV process...they just produced from 23/3... monthly output is 40-50....;)

View attachment 118378
seems complete speculation and even if true, I don't know how you only produce 40 to 50/month
 

PopularScience

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Huawei is not the entire Chinese semi industry!

Empyrean said earlier this year their product covers the entire 7nm EDA spectrum, but people just forget about it and attribute everything to Huawei.

Just stop it. Huawei is not fabbing its own chips. It's relying on SMIC and other chipmakers
Somebody mentioned that Huawei and Empyrean co-developed the 7nm EDA, and copyright belongs to Empyrean. I don't know how true this is.
 

tphuang

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Screen Shot 2023-09-08 at 8.16.23 AM.png
Screen Shot 2023-09-08 at 8.17.29 AM.png

Couple of notes here
Looks like Mate X5 is also using 9000S
As well as Mate 60+
so, a lot of production here

Huawei recently put in a double digit million order of 5G SoC (he didn't specify how many here or whether they will all be 9000S)
Expect also small pocket foldable, MatePad & Nova phones to all use it

Seems like pretty healthy production level here.

of note, this guy actually does seem to be more legit than others as he broke the Kirin news originally
 

liospopo

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Huawei is not the entire Chinese semi industry!

Empyrean said earlier this year their product covers the entire 7nm EDA spectrum, but people just forget about it and attribute everything to Huawei.

Just stop it. Huawei is not fabbing its own chips. It's relying on SMIC and other chipmakers
Huawei‘s relation to many fabs is quite complicated. Let's say, a chip production line funded by Huawei, and the engineers works on this line also hired by Huawei. And this production line only makes chips for Huawei. Is this Huawei's own production line?Officially, no. So,yeah, Huawei is not fabbing its own chips.:)
 
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