Chinese semiconductor industry

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tokenanalyst

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Fine. But again, the image say hundred of millions to billions. You're clearly lying when you said just 100 million rmb. The huge price range is a clear sign that nobody knows how much it's gonna cost in the end. And again, this is just the light source, EUV machine is more than the light source, even if it's the most expensive and complex part. You're clearly not seeing the issue of cost and complexity when you're going from a machine the size of a huge truck, to something that can encircle an jumbo jet and has to be staffed with particle physicists.

Just the fact that you're gonna to need to build an entire new fab to house one is gonna bottleneck it.


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The entire reason why they had to test a concept in germany was because it needed a special synchrotron. I'm assuming the ones in China weren't suitable.

It's going to need a specifically built synchrotron for the full powered version.

Anyway, a "test" doesn't mean shit, seeing as we have no details. I can test my aircraft carrier concept by launching paper aircraft from a tugboat. For all we know, they only generated peak power of a few watts and only for a few seconds. China outright built a EUV prototype before, getting mass produced version and the best version for low defects and good yield isn't easy.

I'm not saying that it won't work or a few won't be build. But again, economical matters for commercial products. DUVi can get to 5nm or 3nm with lots of multi-patterning. If SMIC don't care about cost, they could go ham and buy everything DUVi on the market, make hundreds of fabs and multi-pattern how many dozens of times to get 3nm to flood the market. Enjoy your $20,000 phone with 3nm node.
If they manage to get SSMB to work, it could revolutionize lithography and chip making in general, is not only able to power multiple tools at the same time but is also tunable, that means with some appropriate modifications to the tools it will able to half the wavelength of the light to 6.5nm, not counting that increasing the NA of the projection-objective system , it don't require the per tool hefty hydrogen cleaning systems, the expensive Co2 MOPA laser systems, blue lasers systems, tin molten droplet systems. Per tool will be basically the projection system, vibration cancelling systems, the vacuum system, the mask system, objective system and the maglev dual wafer stage. Technologies that except for the mask system China already have.
 

latenlazy

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Fine. But again, the image say hundred of millions to billions. You're clearly lying when you said just 100 million rmb. The huge price range is a clear sign that nobody knows how much it's gonna cost in the end. And again, this is just the light source, EUV machine is more than the light source, even if it's the most expensive and complex part. You're clearly not seeing the issue of cost and complexity when you're going from a machine the size of a huge truck, to something that can encircle an jumbo jet and has to be staffed with particle physicists.
You might be surprised to find that people with particle physics expertise are needed for LPP instruments too. Particle physics isn’t the kind of pie in the sky expertise you seem to think it is. While particle physics is pretty advanced extreme physics, so is plasma physics, and in fact both fields overlap quite a lot (to be clear this is in absolute terms, not relative to global STEM degree holders). And there’s quite a lot of talent globally who have this sort of expertise working in all kinds of industries (to illustrate this point one of my dad’s friends got his PhD in black hole physics but ended up becoming a software developer for flight simulators). Just because a science field is complex though doesn’t mean the equipment that comes out of that expertise is necessarily complex. The complexity in the study of physical dynamics is independent of the complexity of the engineering that goes into the equipment their research creates. You should stop using popular hype as the basis of judgments for how science and engineering topics work.

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The entire reason why they had to test a concept in germany was because it needed a special synchrotron. I'm assuming the ones in China weren't suitable.
A low alpha synchrotron is not some super special secret device that needs special secret mastery. China didn’t have one adequate to test their SSMB ideas because China is still building up its stock of scientific equipment and this type of device likely wasn’t high on the list of priorities, not because these devices are hard to build or that there’s no expertise in China to build them. In science research it’s often dumb pointless and wasteful to wait for your own institute or country to build a device you need to test some ideas when another country or institute already built a device that meets your requirements for some other purpose or research path that your institute or country hasn’t gotten to yet. That’s like saying if someone working on stellarator designs for fusion in the US has to go to Germany to use the Wendelstein 7X that means the US is incapable of building a stellarator. This is the value of global science cooperation btw. Just because you *can* do everything yourself doesn’t mean you *should* do everything yourself. If you can go to another institute or country that has the equipment you need, even if you could build the equipment yourself you’re getting better use out of your time and money borrowing someone else’s

And ftr just in case this question has crossed your mind before, academic research equipment is expensive because they are often custom designed and built, and thus don’t benefit from efficiencies you can attain through a rigorous industrial design process and industrial scale.
It's going to need a specifically built synchrotron for the full powered version.

Anyway, a "test" doesn't mean shit, seeing as we have no details. I can test my aircraft carrier concept by launching paper aircraft from a tugboat. For all we know, they only generated peak power of a few watts and only for a few seconds. China outright built a EUV prototype before, getting mass produced version and the best version for low defects and good yield isn't easy.
You are probably not qualified to gauge whether their tests mean “shit”.

China’s early EUV prototype was not meant for industrial use. It was a concept demonstrator for advancing research and development. And has been pointed out already those kinds of plasma based instruments are a different kind of technology from SSMB. The inherent difficulties and faults in one kind of technology don’t automatically apply to another kind of technology just because they’re meant to do the same things. That’s like using difficulties encountered in the development of a fan based hoverboard to set expectations for the development difficulties of a jet pack.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

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If they manage to get SSMB to work, it could revolutionize lithography and chip making in general, is not only able to power multiple tools at the same time but is also tunable, that means with some appropriate modifications to the tools it will able to half the wavelength of the light to 6.5nm, not counting that increasing the NA of the projection-objective system , it don't require the per tool hefty hydrogen cleaning systems, the expensive Co2 MOPA laser systems, blue lasers systems, tin molten droplet systems. Per tool will be basically the projection system, vibration cancelling systems, the vacuum system, the mask system, objective system and the maglev dual wafer stage. Technologies that except for the mask system China already have.
Not sure about the hydrogen cleaning part being able to be 100% removed.
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, but they're
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While there's no need for Sn removal in a SSMB source, a reduced system is still necessary for the actual exposure chamber because you still need the optics there to be clean. But, the advantage is, its a much simpler system, only for use on the exposure chamber, and not constant, but used only as needed. An intermittent maintenance type machine for use only on the small exposure chamber is much easier than a big system on the light source.

1-s2.0-S0042207X21006849-gr1.jpg
 

latenlazy

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Not sure about the hydrogen cleaning part being able to be 100% removed.
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, but they're
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While there's no need for Sn removal in a SSMB source, a reduced system is still necessary for the actual exposure chamber because you still need the optics there to be clean. But, the advantage is, its a much simpler system, only for use on the exposure chamber, and not constant, but used only as needed. An intermittent maintenance type machine for use only on the small exposure chamber is much easier than a big system on the light source.

1-s2.0-S0042207X21006849-gr1.jpg
You also don’t need to worry about one extra vapor chemistry factor because you don’t need to deal with vaporized tin drops interacting with other kinds of vapors generated from the high energy physical interactions in your system.

Just in case people here don’t grasp this, in an LPP light source once you’ve hit that molten tin droplet to get your EUV emissions a lot of that droplet gets vaporized (as in literally turned into vapor, not as in it just vanished from existence) and sprays everywhere inside the light accumulator chamber. You have to have a method to intersect and remove that debris or it will coat the reflective interior of the light accumulator which will reduce the amount of light you can reflect to the optics projection path (and may also hurt the beam scatter profile you ideally want for scanning efficiency). As a result the light source for LPP based machines probably requires more regular maintenance and involve more downtime than their DUV predecessors. LPP is actually a very troublesome technology in a lot of ways.
 

Quickie

Colonel
Clearly you don’t know Chinese. 1-10KW is for FEL. 1KW is for SSMB.

Also cleary stated that cost is few hundered millions to 1 billion. The perimeter is 100m, much smaller than synchrotron.

100m perimeter. I assume it's the circumference.

In that case, the facility is only less than 2/3 the size (area) of an Olympic pool, 33m x 25m. Really quite small and nothing comparable to the size of a Jumbo jet as tacoburger has suggested.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
havok:This needs to be considered comprehensively. The current ASML equipment is not small, larger than a bus, and this does not include the volume of the driving laser. The use of SSMB can save the volume of the driving laser and the EUV collector, and the footprint in the FAB will be much smaller. The second is energy consumption. LPP uses a 200,000-watt carbon dioxide laser to bombard tin droplets to generate 300-watt extreme ultraviolet light, and then reaches the surface of the silicon wafer after 11 reflections through the collecting mirror, lighting mirror and projection objective lens. Lost 30% of the energy, the final energy reaching the silicon chip is only a pitiful 300 watts✕2%=6 watts, the energy utilization rate is extremely low, no wonder the wanwan is always short of power, using SSMB can reduce the number of reflections by about half. Another is the maintenance cost. LPP will produce a lot of metal debris when it bombards the tin target. Although the debris can be sucked away by some methods, a lot of debris will still fall on the collecting mirror and pollute the lens after a long time. Therefore, it is necessary to replace the collecting mirror every certain time, and the cost of replacing it is not cheap. With SSMB there is no need for collector mirrors and no debris issues.

这个需要综合考量,现在ASML的设备体积也不小,比一辆公交车还大,这还未算上驱动激光的体积。采用SSMB可以省去驱动激光和EUV收集器的体积,放在FAB内的占地就会小很多。其次是能耗,LPP用20万瓦的二氧化碳激光去轰击锡滴来产生300瓦的极紫外光,然后通过收集镜,照明反射镜和投影物镜经过11次反射后到达硅片表面,每次反射损耗30%能量,最终到达硅片的能量只有可怜的300瓦✕2%=6瓦,能量利用率极低,怪不得弯弯总是缺电,用SSMB可以减少一半左右的反射次数。再次是维护费用,LPP在轰击锡靶的时候会产生大量金属碎屑,虽然可以通过一些方法把碎屑吸走,但是时间久了仍会有不少碎屑掉落到收集镜上污染镜片,所以隔一定的时间是需要更换收集镜的,更换一次的费用可不菲。用SSMB不需要收集镜也没有碎屑问题。
Makes me wonder what the light loss is for an ArFi system and what their at stage light wattage is.
 

tokenanalyst

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The first in China! Xiamen University achieves 8-inch silicon carbide epitaxial growth​


News on March 19, according to the official news from the Department of Physics of Xiamen University, recently, Xiamen University successfully realized the homoepitaxial growth of 8 inches (200 mm) silicon carbide (SiC), becoming the first institution in China to own and realize this technology .

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According to reports, as one of the main representatives of the third-generation semiconductors, compared with silicon, silicon carbide has a wider band gap, a higher breakdown electric field, and a higher thermal conductivity. Excellent performance in the frequency domain. Silicon carbide-based power electronic devices have been widely used in aerospace, new energy vehicles, rail transit, photovoltaic power generation, smart grid and other fields.

The current mainstream silicon carbide single crystal and epitaxial growth are still in the 6-inch stage, and expanding the size has become the main path to reduce costs and increase efficiency in the industry chain. However, there are still many technical difficulties in the process of moving towards 8 inches.

The person in charge of the scientific research team of Xiamen University said that by overcoming the problems of greater stress on the 8-inch substrate, easier cracking, and more difficult control of the thickness uniformity of the epitaxial layer, the homoepitaxial growth of silicon carbide based on domestic substrates was successfully realized. The thickness of the epitaxial layer is 12 um, the thickness non-uniformity is 2.3%; the doping concentration is 8.4×10¹⁵ cmˉ³, the doping concentration non-uniformity is <7.5%; the surface defect (Carrot, Triangle, Downfall, Scratch) density is <0.5 cmˉ².

The person in charge of the above-mentioned scientific research team said that this breakthrough marks that my country has mastered the related technology of 8-inch silicon carbide epitaxial growth. The realization of this technology is the result of the industry-university-research cooperation between Xiamen University and Hantiancheng Electronic Technology (Xiamen) Co., Ltd., which will inject new impetus into the development of my country's silicon carbide industry and promote the development of new energy and other related fields.

It is understood that the physics department of Xiamen University was founded in 1923. It is one of the earliest physics courses established in Chinese universities and has played an important role in the history of Chinese physics development. Xiamen University Physics participated in China's first five-university joint semiconductor specialization; developed China's first conductive glass, the first transistor radio, and the first gallium phosphide planar light-emitting diode.
 

olalavn

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The fourth generation of semiconductor materials has made another breakthrough! Professor Chen Haifeng's team from the Key Laboratory of New Semiconductor Devices and Materials of Xi'an University of Posts and Telecommunications recently successfully prepared high-quality gallium oxide epitaxial wafers in 8-inch silicon wafers, marking important progress in the research of ultra-wide bandgap semiconductors
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