Chinese semiconductor industry

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tokenanalyst

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SMIC does not have a foundry in Chengdu
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I think they have a testing facility over there.
My take is that EUV is overrated. US is heavy investing in EUV sub 7nm nodes, but maybe they are betting on the wrong horse.
Yes i think low NA EUV is a bit overrated, with the cost associated with EUV there isn't a generational leap compared with immersion lithography, the machines cost much more, the masks cost much more, photo resist is more expensive and so on.
The generational leap will come with high NA EUV. That will be a game changer in the industry even if the machine cost more.

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ansy1968

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I think they have a testing facility over there.

Yes i think low NA EUV is a bit overrated, with the cost associated with EUV there isn't a generational leap compared with immersion lithography, the machines cost much more, the masks cost much more, photo resist is more expensive and so on.
The generational leap will come with high NA EUV. That will be a game changer in the industry even if the machine cost more.

View attachment 97662
View attachment 97663
Bro better than an EUVL powered by SSMB?
 

AndrewS

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What is in your opinion the future of EUV?​


First of all a nice picture:

View attachment 97661

As you can see, when compared to 7nm, the performance speed up of a 3nm node at iso-power is less then 25% and we are 5 years and 2 full generations apart!

The real advantage of even smaller nodes is in logic density and power, not in performance.

But for which downstream application is this a critical advantage?

For smartphones probably it is. But for AI? For general computing and data centers?

When you don't have critical requirement on power consumption, you can use a 7nm and the impact will be very limited, but the cost advantage will be huge.

So my question is, what will be the future of EUV and sub 7nm nodes?

My take is that EUV is overrated. US is heavy investing in EUV sub 7nm nodes, but maybe they are betting on the wrong horse.

IMO China can do well just with DUVi for the foreseeable future with the only exceptions of smartphones chips. But these chips are not strategical. Chips for AI, autonomous driving, general computing and data-centers are. All these application have less constrains on power consumption.

If we go with the diagram above, N3 will use 40% less electricity than N7.
Or N7 uses 67% more electricity than N3.

---

I'm seeing figures of 14-35% smartphone battery consumption is accounted by the CPU.
So for smartphones, it doesn't sound like the end of the world if they go with N7 CPU chips.

---

When looking at server chips, I've picked 2 Intel Xeon Platinum chips for comparison.

67% more electricity usage is an additional 1% or 5% per year of the initial Intel Xeon Platinum chip cost.
So 7nm server/data centre chips look manageable.
 

tphuang

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On September 3, 2021, the core Chengdu foundry, using the Shanghai microlithography machine SSA800/10W immersion lithography machine Parameters: Lens NA: 1.35 Single exposure resolution: 38-41nm Double workpiece stage: DWSi, yield Over-etching accuracy at 200 wafers per hour: better than 2.5nm Design index: able to meet the requirements of 28nm planar planner transistor logic circuit process under single exposure conditions

NXT 2000i 2.0NM

NXT 2050i 1.5NM

NXT 2100i 1.3NM
If I understand correctly, the accuracy on NXT 2100i and 2050i are better than that of the earliest EUV. You can see why SMIC thinks they can do 5 nm with DUVs alone. And it is likely a lower cost process (although more labor intensive one) than using EUV. It is likely that SMIC SN1 is using mostly NXT 2000i and that SN2 is using all NXT 2050i. SN2 should be devoted to N+2 process when it's up and running.
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最主要的是,ASML还在2021年年底与中芯国际续签了合约,2022年仍继续向中芯国际交付先进的DUV光刻机等设备。要知道,仅11亿美元就能够购买20余DUV光刻机等设备,而中芯国际又与ASML续签了合约,但这几十台广光刻机仅仅是开始.
so the deal between ASML and SMIC would've been signed at end of last year and likely NXT 2050i. It says here that $1.1 billion for 20 DUVs and many more "tens" were sold this time around. I think SMIC probably got some discount from large bulk orders, which is why that average price is lower than the overall 58.8 million EUR average sales price of ASML DUVi.

The 1.513 billion EUR sales figure most likely included a good number of dry ArF and KrF machines. But since SMEE is also competing in this segment, the vast majority (probably 85% of this sales figure) are for the more advanced immersion lithography machine. That would put the delivery figure for DUVi in H1 at closer to 25 than 30. Still a large number.

Regarding SMEE, one of the comment here caught my eyes
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Looks like SMEE thinks it has (or will have) 30% of the Chinese market in the front end process (with SMIC, Huahong, GTA semiconductor and YMTC as clients) and 80% of Chinese market (and 40% of international market) in the back end process/packaging and such (with Huawei, TSMC as clients).

So for the former, I can only assume it has already shipped lithography machine to those big 4 players (at least in the SSA600 product line)

As for what SMEE has delivered. It's unknown for sure. Lot of secrecy here.
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在上海微电子官网可以看到,2018年3月,上海微电子90nm光刻机项目通过正式验收。也就是说,目前我们国产的光刻机已经可以做到90nm工艺。
We know that 90nm SMEE lithography machine passed its certification back in 2018. However, in terms of SSA600 deliveries, they seem to have only started in 2020 to YMTC, SMIC Shaoxing and Shanghai GTA semiconductor. Those 3 seem to be 2020 orders.
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Looks like since then, they have also delivered to HLMC and Huahong based on that updated client list.

Also, interesting enough, if you look at the page, it shows the amount of lithography delivery for various fabs. For HLMC fab 6, it received 7 KrF and 5 ArFi in 2019 and 2020. Since we know that Fab6 is used for 28/22 nm nm production at HLMC and the production level at fab 6 was likely 20 to 30k wpm back in 2021, it reconfirms @tinrobert's estimate that about 10 DUVi are needed to produce 50k 28 nm 12-inch wpm. Or in this case, probably more like 10 are needed along with KrF also for 22/28 nm per 50k wpm fab.

I'm assuming they mentioned that 90 nm lithography is in mass production because SSA600 has finally been delivering for a couple of years and is now actually been used by customers. And they are likely to only have announced it, because 28 nm lithography is about to go into mass production. We know from that video, SMEE's 28 nm product was good back in 2021. That was likely equivalent to SSA600 passing certification back in 2018. It's likely still being worked out with customers right now and unlikely to be achieving same level of yield as ASML. As such, I think only Huawei is likely to use it for mass production for the next year or so. Since it probably took 3 years for SSA600 to be mass produced, it will probably take 2 years (assuming first project is always harder) for 28 nm product to reach the point where other domestic players are willing to use it for mass production. That would put timeline at 2023/2024.

So, I would say that as long ASML is able to sell, Chinese fabs are likely to continue buying their machines.
 

PopularScience

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If I understand correctly, the accuracy on NXT 2100i and 2050i are better than that of the earliest EUV. You can see why SMIC thinks they can do 5 nm with DUVs alone. And it is likely a lower cost process (although more labor intensive one) than using EUV. It is likely that SMIC SN1 is using mostly NXT 2000i and that SN2 is using all NXT 2050i. SN2 should be devoted to N+2 process when it's up and running.
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so the deal between ASML and SMIC would've been signed at end of last year and likely NXT 2050i. It says here that $1.1 billion for 20 DUVs and many more "tens" were sold this time around. I think SMIC probably got some discount from large bulk orders, which is why that average price is lower than the overall 58.8 million EUR average sales price of ASML DUVi.

The 1.513 billion EUR sales figure most likely included a good number of dry ArF and KrF machines. But since SMEE is also competing in this segment, the vast majority (probably 85% of this sales figure) are for the more advanced immersion lithography machine. That would put the delivery figure for DUVi in H1 at closer to 25 than 30. Still a large number.

Regarding SMEE, one of the comment here caught my eyes
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Looks like SMEE thinks it has (or will have) 30% of the Chinese market in the front end process (with SMIC, Huahong, GTA semiconductor and YMTC as clients) and 80% of Chinese market (and 40% of international market) in the back end process/packaging and such (with Huawei, TSMC as clients).

So for the former, I can only assume it has already shipped lithography machine to those big 4 players (at least in the SSA600 product line)

As for what SMEE has delivered. It's unknown for sure. Lot of secrecy here.
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We know that 90nm SMEE lithography machine passed its certification back in 2018. However, in terms of SSA600 deliveries, they seem to have only started in 2020 to YMTC, SMIC Shaoxing and Shanghai GTA semiconductor. Those 3 seem to be 2020 orders.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
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Looks like since then, they have also delivered to HLMC and Huahong based on that updated client list.

Also, interesting enough, if you look at the page, it shows the amount of lithography delivery for various fabs. For HLMC fab 6, it received 7 KrF and 5 ArFi in 2019 and 2020. Since we know that Fab6 is used for 28/22 nm nm production at HLMC and the production level at fab 6 was likely 20 to 30k wpm back in 2021, it reconfirms @tinrobert's estimate that about 10 DUVi are needed to produce 50k 28 nm 12-inch wpm. Or in this case, probably more like 10 are needed along with KrF also for 22/28 nm per 50k wpm fab.

I'm assuming they mentioned that 90 nm lithography is in mass production because SSA600 has finally been delivering for a couple of years and is now actually been used by customers. And they are likely to only have announced it, because 28 nm lithography is about to go into mass production. We know from that video, SMEE's 28 nm product was good back in 2021. That was likely equivalent to SSA600 passing certification back in 2018. It's likely still being worked out with customers right now and unlikely to be achieving same level of yield as ASML. As such, I think only Huawei is likely to use it for mass production for the next year or so. Since it probably took 3 years for SSA600 to be mass produced, it will probably take 2 years (assuming first project is always harder) for 28 nm product to reach the point where other domestic players are willing to use it for mass production. That would put timeline at 2023/2024.

So, I would say that as long ASML is able to sell, Chinese fabs are likely to continue buying their machines.
nxt2100/2050i are special designed for China market, whose couldn’t get euv.
 

ansy1968

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If I understand correctly, the accuracy on NXT 2100i and 2050i are better than that of the earliest EUV. You can see why SMIC thinks they can do 5 nm with DUVs alone. And it is likely a lower cost process (although more labor intensive one) than using EUV. It is likely that SMIC SN1 is using mostly NXT 2000i and that SN2 is using all NXT 2050i. SN2 should be devoted to N+2 process when it's up and running.
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Sir regarding NXT 2050i Huahong had also received the machine, I think after ASML delayed and eventually denied the delivery of the already paid EUVL to SMIC in 2018, to make amends they agree to ship their most advance DUVL not only to SMIC BUT to all Chinese FABS to please Beijing. From @foofy:

foofy

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antiterror13 said:
really? are you sure about that ? any links?
From zhihu. Huahong Grace got one. SMIC got one. They are keeping low profile.

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具体时间记不清了大概是2017年,武汉一个公司订购了一台euv光刻机。当时公司内部还把这个消息放在了内网…
www.zhihu.com
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    (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06
    是,当时我还想报到一下2050movein的事,被大佬直接叫停谁都不准说。所以圈外的人都不知道SMIC第一时间就搞来全世界第三台NXT2050i 。前两条是T厂和M公司
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    (作者) 回复知乎用户03-06
    刚刚说错了。康桥是华虹的厂……对,两个边都买了一台。
 

AndrewS

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If I understand correctly, the accuracy on NXT 2100i and 2050i are better than that of the earliest EUV. You can see why SMIC thinks they can do 5 nm with DUVs alone. And it is likely a lower cost process (although more labor intensive one) than using EUV. It is likely that SMIC SN1 is using mostly NXT 2000i and that SN2 is using all NXT 2050i. SN2 should be devoted to N+2 process when it's up and running.
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So, I would say that as long ASML is able to sell, Chinese fabs are likely to continue buying their machines.

Just 2 comments

For a 300mm fab, everything has to be automated. In a 200mm fab, the wafer transport carts can still be moved around by people.

And yes, Chinese fabs will continue to buy ASML machines for now. But we can't say the same in 5 years time
 

tphuang

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nxt2100/2050i are special designed for China market, whose couldn’t get euv.
Great thanks. Looks like the first 2050i was delivered in October of 2020. That would indicate that SN1 is using a combination of 1980i and 2050i. I haven't seen any news of 2100i shipment yet. I would assume 2050i is only used for the "most critical layer".

Do you know if SN1/SN2 are getting all the other equipments they need for expansion?

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Looks like the $1.2 billion was part of a volume purchase from 2018 until 2021. $1.2 billion is only referring to the deliveries in the 12 months prior to March of 2021. So, they have been taking deliveries all the way until end of 2021. It makes sense why they would need to sign an additional contract at end of 2021 for the deliveries this year.
 
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siegecrossbow

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Phytium's D2000 is 2 years old now.

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So SMIC has been producing 14nm since 2 years already...and only today it has been officially confirmed.

I was not able to find info on when the famous 7nm MinerVa Bitcoin Miner, analyzed by TechInsights, started production.

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Anyhow it seems that SMIC is far more ahead of what they publicy announce. Maybe they are already in limited production also with the 7nm and nobody knows it until someone does not find another 7nm chip in the open market.

I also think is a bit suspect that all these advanced DUV immersion machines that landed in China in the last couple of years are dedicated to 28nm or above. From official statements it seems new SMIC fabs are all 14-28nm and above....I have some doubts on it....

I have a feeling that they are holding back info until Trump re-election in 2024 to do a semiconductor equivalent of this…

 
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