Chinese semiconductor industry

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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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I can’t say for sure because my experience is mostly with patterning and process control. But, I do believe it’s much easier to close the gap with the west in etching and deposition. So, I see indigenous etch, deposition, clean, & ion deposition, etc at a production ready level in a few years as highly feasible. If these companies are focused and continue to execute then I would go out on a limb and say they would be ready for 28nm by 2025. But that’s just my opinion. Maybe other expert in these areas could chime in and provide more solid assessment.

On your second question, I’m even less qualified to answer. But, smartphone is what’s driving the technology and the massive profit at tsmc. Chip performance, ultra low power consumption, small form factor are some key performance index that keep pushing tsmc to the brink of their capability. Without access to leading edge technology it’ll be hard for Huawei to come up with new/more powerful Kirin to compete with Apple.

BUT, Huawei has proven to be a world class tech conglomerate. I personally would not write them off just yet.
AMEC etchers have already been accepted for 5 nm process.

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Finally people talk about etch and deposition lmao I was waiting for this.

The key challenge in etch is how to manage very aggressive chemistries such as fluorine and oxygen containing plasmas in a highly controlled way to achieve a huge variety of requirements (not all at once) including but not limited to:

1. Precision high aspect ratio etch for very deep, very narrow holes, for memory applications

2. High aspect ratio high speed etch for TSV, CMOS, packaging

3. Highly controlled large area etch for logic, perhaps even as precise as atomic layer etching

4.. Generally, high degrees of etch selectivity so only what you want to remove (oxides or nitride or resist) while avoiding what you don't want to remove (silicon or metal but also sometimes oxide/nitride)

5. Generally, etch uniformity across entire wafer or even multiple wafers which is a major challenge due to the relatively small dimensionality of plasma generators active region relative to the wafer size and high reactivity of the plasma.

6. Generally, extreme etch purity. Anything that reacts with wafer materials can also react with reactor chamber materials like aluminum and steel. These act as unintentional dopants if allowed to be exposed to the wafer. The exact coatings and materials used for the chambers to resist plasma and for plasma exposed components are highly advanced and much of the time, proprietary, in chemistry, fabrication and testing.

7. Inline process metrology for film thickness, wafer bow and plasma chemistry to adjust the reaction parameters (wafer chuck temperature and heating rate, plasma generation and chemical feed)

I can get into deposition but that's going to be some huge wall of text too.
 

antiterror13

Brigadier
I heard from my contact that ICRD in Jiading had taken delivery of a NXT1980. Not installed yet. We think it’s to help: 1. To help qualify and benchmark SMEE immersion; 2. Help provide wafers to help with optimization and qualification of other fab equipments.

These guys are also suppose to develop 14nm process. So, if not SMIC, perhaps Huawei could eventually go through ICRD jiading’s small wafer capacity. That would be an upside in despite of the SMIC/sanction situation.

Why ICRD not taking 2000i or 2050i ?

Can 1980i do 14nm ?
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
AMEC etchers have already been accepted for 5 nm process.

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Finally people talk about etch and deposition lmao I was waiting for this.

The key challenge in etch is how to manage very aggressive chemistries such as fluorine and oxygen containing plasmas in a highly controlled way to achieve a huge variety of requirements (not all at once) including but not limited to:

1. Precision high aspect ratio etch for very deep, very narrow holes, for memory applications

2. High aspect ratio high speed etch for TSV, CMOS, packaging

3. Highly controlled large area etch for logic, perhaps even as precise as atomic layer etching

4.. Generally, high degrees of etch selectivity so only what you want to remove (oxides or nitride or resist) while avoiding what you don't want to remove (silicon or metal but also sometimes oxide/nitride)

5. Generally, etch uniformity across entire wafer or even multiple wafers which is a major challenge due to the relatively small dimensionality of plasma generators active region relative to the wafer size and high reactivity of the plasma.

6. Generally, extreme etch purity. Anything that reacts with wafer materials can also react with reactor chamber materials like aluminum and steel. These act as unintentional dopants if allowed to be exposed to the wafer. The exact coatings and materials used for the chambers to resist plasma and for plasma exposed components are highly advanced and much of the time, proprietary, in chemistry, fabrication and testing.

7. Inline process metrology for film thickness, wafer bow and plasma chemistry to adjust the reaction parameters (wafer chuck temperature and heating rate, plasma generation and chemical feed)

I can get into deposition but that's going to be some huge wall of text too.
In 2020 in their annual report they say that their 3nm Inductively Coupled Plasma etching machine is in alpha stage.
I know you need ultrapure fluorine compound gases to archive good quality etch, would be interesting to know what are the big players in china in that arena.

from Sina finance

1647804993218.png
 

Alb

New Member
Registered Member
AMEC etchers have already been accepted for 5 nm process.

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Finally people talk about etch and deposition lmao I was waiting for this.

The key challenge in etch is how to manage very aggressive chemistries such as fluorine and oxygen containing plasmas in a highly controlled way to achieve a huge variety of requirements (not all at once) including but not limited to:

1. Precision high aspect ratio etch for very deep, very narrow holes, for memory applications

2. High aspect ratio high speed etch for TSV, CMOS, packaging

3. Highly controlled large area etch for logic, perhaps even as precise as atomic layer etching

4.. Generally, high degrees of etch selectivity so only what you want to remove (oxides or nitride or resist) while avoiding what you don't want to remove (silicon or metal but also sometimes oxide/nitride)

5. Generally, etch uniformity across entire wafer or even multiple wafers which is a major challenge due to the relatively small dimensionality of plasma generators active region relative to the wafer size and high reactivity of the plasma.

6. Generally, extreme etch purity. Anything that reacts with wafer materials can also react with reactor chamber materials like aluminum and steel. These act as unintentional dopants if allowed to be exposed to the wafer. The exact coatings and materials used for the chambers to resist plasma and for plasma exposed components are highly advanced and much of the time, proprietary, in chemistry, fabrication and testing.

7. Inline process metrology for film thickness, wafer bow and plasma chemistry to adjust the reaction parameters (wafer chuck temperature and heating rate, plasma generation and chemical feed)

I can get into deposition but that's going to be some huge wall of text too.
I have the read about AMEC 5nm etching machine. Even though I am not an expert I understand that different types of etching/deposition machines are needed for different process steps, e.g. ICP, CCP etching, copper PVD etch.. It would be intetesting to know if Chinese equipment suppliers can cover all the areas of etching and deposition. If this the case then a de-americanized production line might be feasible. Otherwise it would be interesting to know where the gaps are and where Lam and Amat tools are not replaceble at the moment.
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
ICRD will not be producing chips for Huawei. They do not produce chips for sale. They basically help the industry qualify their process development. From what I understand they are helping HLMC develop their 14nm FinFET process and helping other Chinese companies validate their materials and tools in an environment which is as close to an actual production line as possible.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
ICRD will not be producing chips for Huawei. They do not produce chips for sale. They basically help the industry qualify their process development. From what I understand they are helping HLMC develop their 14nm FinFET process and helping other Chinese companies validate their materials and tools in an environment which is as close to an actual production line as possible.

The idea is to make ICRD the equivalent of IMEC

IMEC offers neutral ground amid chip rivalries
The brain trust at the heart of the $550bn semiconductor industry


imec, as it is better known, does not design chips (like America’s Intel), manufacture them (like tsmc of Taiwan) or make any of the complicated gear in its basement (like asml, a Dutch firm). Instead, it creates knowledge used by everyone in the $550bn chip business. Given chips’ centrality to the modern economy—highlighted by the havoc wrought by current shortages—and increasingly to modern geopolitics, too, that makes it one of the most essential industrial research-and-development (r&d) centres on the planet. Luc Van den hove, imec’s boss, calls it the “Switzerland of semiconductors”.

economist.com/business/imec-offers-neutral-ground-amid-chip-rivalries/21804980
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have the read about AMEC 5nm etching machine. Even though I am not an expert I understand that different types of etching/deposition machines are needed for different process steps, e.g. ICP, CCP etching, copper PVD etch.. It would be intetesting to know if Chinese equipment suppliers can cover all the areas of etching and deposition. If this the case then a de-americanized production line might be feasible. Otherwise it would be interesting to know where the gaps are and where Lam and Amat tools are not replaceble at the moment.
i am not an expert but from my point of view Chinese companies can do Ion implantation, Cleaning, CMP, Metrology, deposition, etching, thermal processing, testing and mostly everything now up to 28nm or less, TEL and South Korean SME providers like SEMES also do a lot. The only thing will be nano patterning tools, with SMEE immersion getting closer, the posibility of using gigaphoton in ASML tools or Nikon tools, having a 90-99% de-americanized production line is not a wet dream, there are a few caveats but is possible.
 

Alb

New Member
Registered Member
i am not an expert but from my point of view Chinese companies can do Ion implantation, Cleaning, CMP, Metrology, deposition, etching, thermal processing, testing and mostly everything now up to 28nm or less, TEL and South Korean SME providers like SEMES also do a lot. The only thing will be nano patterning tools, with SMEE immersion getting closer, the posibility of using gigaphoton in ASML tools or Nikon tools, having a 90-99% de-americanized production line is not a wet dream, there are a few caveats but is possible.
That is why we need an expert to answer. When you say Chinese companies can do etching , deposition does it mean that they cover all materials for etching and deposition? I give you an ecample in PVD Amat is the leader with over 70% market share and it has PVD tools covering diferent materials. Does Naura have PVD tools covering all the materials as well? For instance does Naura have a copper intetconnect PVD? Honestly I don't know the answer and I think only a subject matter expert can answer.

So I understand that FairandUnbiased is the subject matter expert in etching/deposition.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
I have the read about AMEC 5nm etching machine. Even though I am not an expert I understand that different types of etching/deposition machines are needed for different process steps, e.g. ICP, CCP etching, copper PVD etch.. It would be intetesting to know if Chinese equipment suppliers can cover all the areas of etching and deposition. If this the case then a de-americanized production line might be feasible. Otherwise it would be interesting to know where the gaps are and where Lam and Amat tools are not replaceble at the moment.
Etch and deposition are different. AMEC focuses on etch only. For AMEC, yes, they have comprehensive capabilities in etch including ultra high aspect ratio TSV etching which is one of the most difficult etches.

Typically for copper layer you don't use etch directly, you etch the dielectric, backfill copper uniformly, then CMP the excess copper layer down to get insulating layers back. You need only a general dielectric etch for this process.
 
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