Chinese semiconductor industry

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9dashline

Captain
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Sorry for derailing discussion but semiconductor for military mainly uses older process right? Are there no military utilization for 3nm chip?
I'm asking this because of the possible chip embargo to Russia.
military doesnt not use anywhere close to 3nm, even 14nm is more than enough
 

nixdorf

New Member
Registered Member
Sorry for derailing discussion but semiconductor for military mainly uses older process right? Are there no military utilization for 3nm chip?
I'm asking this because of the possible chip embargo to Russia.
There is always going to be a need for more powerful and more energy-efficient processors . If your opponent has better processors than you, you will be at a disadvantage.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
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There is always going to be a need for more powerful and more energy-efficient processors . If your opponent has better processors than you, you will be at a disadvantage.
depends on what you mean by better. because in a military context, harsh environment resistance is far more important than processing power and power efficiency (as power used for computing is essentially negligible compared to that for actually moving - note that this doesn't include RF though).
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
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Sorry for derailing discussion but semiconductor for military mainly uses older process right? Are there no military utilization for 3nm chip?
I'm asking this because of the possible chip embargo to Russia.
The military as well as the automotive sector usually use older nodes, because the technology is more mature, more reliable and easier to make ICs that will work in hashers environments. Skywater still makes military chips in 110nm. The Chinese military is quite independent in semiconductors, I think they don't even use commercial fabs to manufacture their chips, CETC is the main semiconductor manufacturer for the Chinese military and they even develop semiconductor manufacturing equipment from ion implantation machines to lithography equipment, i have even read that they have 45nm capabilities even though is maybe low throughput is good enough for low volume.
The example that most quickly comes to mind is that the rover that the Chinese sent to Mars uses a rad hard chip manufactured on a 250nm node. And I think it's the same for the Russians with the only difference being that the Russians buy most of their equipment from Western companies. I don't know in what way they can reduce this dependency or if they would be willing to collaborate with China in this area.
 

tokenanalyst

Brigadier
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There is always going to be a need for more powerful and more energy-efficient processors . If your opponent has better processors than you, you will be at a disadvantage.
Energy efficient is better for miniaturization like smartphones and more powerful chips is good for gaming or supercomputers, mostly civilians applications, a 7 nm chip is useless if is not going to survive a harsh environment. Would be better to fit your weapons with a 110nm chip that will perform better in that environment. For military civilian applications like by example data analysis i think the Russians will still have access to most of what the rest of the world are consuming due their close proximity to China. If Iran that is 10x more isolate than what Russia will ever be still have access to computers for Russia will be less than an issue.

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9dashline

Captain
Registered Member
Energy efficient is better for miniaturization like smartphones and more powerful chips is good for gaming or supercomputers, mostly civilians applications, a 7 nm chip is useless if is not going to survive a harsh environment. Would be better to fit your weapons with a 110nm chip that will perform better in that environment. For military civilian applications like by example data analysis i think the Russians will still have access to most of what the rest of the world are consuming due their close proximity to China. If Iran that is 10x more isolate than what Russia will ever be still have access to computers for Russia will be less than an issue.

View attachment 83759
+1

Moores Law is basically dead, and so is the Dennard Scaling wall... point of inflection of diminishing returns has already been pasted. Used to be up the raw Ghz, then couldn't anymore so up the core count, but not all apps scale with core count invariantly so then it was all about the 3D Tri-gate for a while...

Also absent some new major breakthroughs even machine learning is hitting limits to what it can do... Recall five years ago the Ford CEO was predicting that Ford would have its own level 5 fully autonomous cars out by 2020/2021 timeframe...
Tesla is still working on their fully autonomous package that has been promised to be any day now since 2017

Turns out the last 10% to self driving is 10x to 100x times as hard to solve as the first 90% which was the low hanging fruit AI

Even Google Deepmind after its one trick phony AlphaGO hadn't been able to pump anything new in the area of deep learning since 2016

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antiterror13

Brigadier
The military as well as the automotive sector usually use older nodes, because the technology is more mature, more reliable and easier to make ICs that will work in hashers environments. Skywater still makes military chips in 110nm. The Chinese military is quite independent in semiconductors, I think they don't even use commercial fabs to manufacture their chips, CETC is the main semiconductor manufacturer for the Chinese military and they even develop semiconductor manufacturing equipment from ion implantation machines to lithography equipment, i have even read that they have 45nm capabilities even though is maybe low throughput is good enough for low volume.
The example that most quickly comes to mind is that the rover that the Chinese sent to Mars uses a rad hard chip manufactured on a 250nm node. And I think it's the same for the Russians with the only difference being that the Russians buy most of their equipment from Western companies. I don't know in what way they can reduce this dependency or if they would be willing to collaborate with China in this area.

Or China just sell or "donate" it to the Russian. Thats in Chinese interest that Russian military stays strong. China may get unlimited access to Russian nuclear subs and few other areas
 

gelgoog

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
The Russian's most advanced processor technology used in military products is a 90nm Elbrus2K as used in the Su-57 PAK-FA.
They also use a lot of 250nm processors for other products. This includes space applications. These are basically MIPS processors.
RTI Systems, the company which owns Mikron, is under the sanctions and they fab a lot of those chips. As are other companies in the Rostec group. I don't know if they sanctioned their purchases of photomask and consumables, or parts and maintenance of production line. Probably. If they did this it can impact military semiconductor production. Or production of Mir smart card chips for debit cards. But AFAIK the Chinese are already producing all these items and have alternate suppliers which do fab tool maintenance without having the original parts. None of those Chinese companies are registered in the US. Russia is still stuck on KrF manufacture or i-line.

They might still be buying foreign DAC chips or other miscelaneous semiconductors like network controllers and the like, but those are so, so fricking common they will easily be able to smuggle them somehow.

The embargo will have impact since they basically sanctioned the whole Russian MIC and this includes Rostec. Rostec produces products not just for the military but also for civilian applications. But they will get over it in probably 2-3 years tops and should have stockpiles to last them that long.

I looked deeply into it, and Elbrus2K for civilian applications shouldn't be sanctioned. Since MSCT does not seem to fall under the sanctions list as a join-stock company partly owned by the Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology and even companies like Intel (yes that Intel). Which is not part of the MIC.
 
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dfrtyhgj

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sorry for derailing discussion but semiconductor for military mainly uses older process right? Are there no military utilization for 3nm chip?
I'm asking this because of the possible chip embargo to Russia.
The West is about to lose Taiwan and South Korea, so yeah we are fucked.
 
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