Chinese SAM

crobato said:

The advantage of TVM+Command Guidance over ARH in SAMs lies in targeting low flying targets. If the target is low flying, the ARH radar has to "look down" and deal with ground clutter. But if you have a stationary ground radar, the radar is always looking up at the bare sky and thus they get a clearer signal.

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Yes. The above advantage is infact present in any SAM system in which guidance is provided by the ground radar. The most important advantage is that in the pre-launch and mid-phase, long-range targets and stealth targets can be tracked only by ground-radars than ARH missiles.

Only trouble is, ground based radar (even raised on a mast) will detect a plane at 200 m altitude at no more than 60 km. Many strikes are performed at even lower altitudes. If the plane comes in at 100 m altitude detection range drops to some 40-45 km. If by any chance the attacker would be able to go in at 50 m, range drops to just a little over 30 km.

On the other hand, sam missiles of s300/patriot class are bigger than, say, amraam. More space for bigger radar of higher resolution and range, more space for better computers to filter out the clutter. pac3 went ARH, granted it'll probably always look just upwards into the clear skies. But Taiwanese sky bow 2 went ARH too and they say they'll eventually replace all the older sky bows with ARH versions. Next gen standards for USN are also slated to go arh. It would appear that no matter what deficencies arh had in sam usage in the past, it will indeed replace tvm guidance very soon.

Finally, why not have both? What is to stop the designers to use both the ground radar and the active radar on the missile, then use the datalink to combine data from both to achieve best situational awareness possible. Add to that a possible IR (or better yet IIR) module on the missile like on sm-3b and you've got yourself quite a potent guidance system that would be extremely hard to fool/jam.

Personally, and especially in light of greater radar stealth threat, i see integrated sensor network sharing and computing data to create a single live image of battlefield then continuously feeding the general location of incoming target data to the missile with a potent IIR system of its own as the way of future. Short wave radars that can be used in ARH missiles seem to be completely out of their league versus stealthy targets, while irsts keep getting better and heat signatures have very clear physical limits to which they can be lowered in high performance combat aircraft.

On a side note, just how much does clearly bigger size and lack of comparably large control surfaces on missiles used in s300 and patriot fare against agile targets? aim54 and r-33 are always quoted as not as effective against fighters due to their lower manouverability. s300/patriot missiles are even fatter with smaller control surfaces. Perhaps they're a bit faster than amraam or even aim54 but could that really have such an effect? then again, often time the brochures for s300 claim hit probability is some 95% with 2 missiles per target. while amraams can't be guaranteed to be 1 for 1, the history of their use does suggest they are somewhat better suited to take on fighters.

On the other hand, sam missiles of s300/patriot class are bigger than, say, amraam. More space for bigger radar of higher resolution and range, more space for better computers to filter out the clutter. pac3 went ARH, granted it'll probably always look just upwards into the clear skies. But Taiwanese sky bow 2 went ARH too and they say they'll eventually replace all the older sky bows with ARH versions. Next gen standards for USN are also slated to go arh. It would appear that no matter what deficencies arh had in sam usage in the past, it will indeed replace tvm guidance very soon.

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TVM was a consequence of limitations in computing power in the 70s/80s. Computers were both expensive and bulky. To have to stuff them into a missile and send the ecomputer quipment on a one way mission as is required in an ARH missile was a very expensive proposition. TVM was hence developed to bypass this problem by having the computations done on the ground. Now no such limitations exist - computer processing power is cheap.

Finally, why not have both? What is to stop the designers to use both the ground radar and the active radar on the missile, then use the datalink to combine data from both to achieve best situational awareness possible. Add to that a possible IR (or better yet IIR) module on the missile like on sm-3b and you've got yourself quite a potent guidance system that would be extremely hard to fool/jam.

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The PAC-3 has both. TVM is used for mid-course guidance while ARH is used for terminal guidance. Sure you can keep increasing the number of sensors on a missile, but you might end up with a $20 million dollar missile.

Personally, and especially in light of greater radar stealth threat, i see integrated sensor network sharing and computing data to create a single live image of battlefield then continuously feeding the general location of incoming target data to the missile with a potent IIR system of its own as the way of future. Short wave radars that can be used in ARH missiles seem to be completely out of their league versus stealthy targets, while irsts keep getting better and heat signatures have very clear physical limits to which they can be lowered in high performance combat aircraft.

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Good idea... theoretically speaking. Until you find out that you spent so much money purchasing a protection system that you have no money left to buy anything worth protecting.

On a side note, just how much does clearly bigger size and lack of comparably large control surfaces on missiles used in s300 and patriot fare against agile targets? aim54 and r-33 are always quoted as not as effective against fighters due to their lower manouverability. s300/patriot missiles are even fatter with smaller control surfaces. Perhaps they're a bit faster than amraam or even aim54 but could that really have such an effect? then again, often time the brochures for s300 claim hit probability is some 95% with 2 missiles per target. while amraams can't be guaranteed to be 1 for 1, the history of their use does suggest they are somewhat better suited to take on fighters.

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S-300 and Patriots (with the exception of the PAC-3) are limited in performance at higher altitudes for exactly the reason stated - small control surfaces limit their maneuverability compared with their target's larger control surfaces. The PAC-3 doesn't suffer from this problem with their small forebody-mounted ACM (Attitude Control Motor) rockets.

this is on the latest news on importing from the Russians
First on Tor-M1

If you can't read Chinese, it's basically saying that after 5 years of negotiation, Tor-M1 negotiation has totally ended and it doesn't appear that China will buy more Tor-M1. It looks like China has used this opportunity to check out all the technical specs of Tor-M1 and possibly creating its own version.

This part is the same as the one I posted on the S-400 thread. It just says that in the last purchase for S-300PMU2, it was only for the command center and control system, not the missiles and launchers themselves.

Speaking of that, any news on the S-400 for China's armed forces? If I'm not mistaken, someone here said they saw a resource saying that China is pushing Russia to sell them the system. But I forgot where I saw that.

Sea Dog said:

Speaking of that, any news on the S-400 for China's armed forces? If I'm not mistaken, someone here said they saw a resource saying that China is pushing Russia to sell them the system. But I forgot where I saw that.

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not sure, we will have to wait and see. I have always believed that China has a good chance of purchasing S-400 and time will tell if they do, but I don't believe any contract has been signed yet.

Anyway, different types of MANPADS from Zhuhai 06.
QW-1G

QW-11

QW-18


news clip on this

　　东方网特派记者马俊11月2日珠海报道：第六届珠海航展上，前卫导弹家族的两个最新成员低调出场：这就是QW-18和QW-11便携防空导弹。

　　QW-11防空导弹是前卫导弹家族的最新成员，是专为抗击巡航导弹而研制的新型号，同时仍保留了攻击低空飞行的直升机、战斗机和攻击机的能力。让记者有些奇怪的是，展出的导弹弹身上标记的是"前卫导弹/QW-11"，但在一边的介绍牌上却写着"QW-1G便携式防空导弹系统"。在场的专家解释到，这个差别只是命名规则的差异，两个名字实际上是指的同一武器系统。
QW-11 is newest member of the QW family. It is developed just for countering cruise missiles, but still has ability to counter low flying helicopters, fighters and ground attackers. Weird part is that QW-1G is also used for the name of this missile
　　QW-11防空导弹采用了先进的"触发+激光近炸"复合引信和数字化的信息处理技术，使它在反导能力上独占螯头。与单纯使用触发式引信的便携式导弹相比，激光近炸引信抗干扰能力更强，而且能在使导弹在目标附近引爆，对付巡航导弹这类难以直接命中的小型目标有非常好的效果。
QW-11 uses advanced "Impact and laser proximity" fuze + digital information processing, gives it anti-ballistic? capability. Compared to impact only fuze, laser proximity provides better ECCM, useful against cruise missiles.
QW-11便携式防空导弹也和前卫家族的其他成员一样，可方便的移植到高机动性能的车辆底盘上，使其能够为行军状态下的野战部队提供伴随保护。QW-11便携式防空导弹长度为1.477米，重量为10.68千克，战斗部重量1.42千克，整个武器系统总重为16.9千克；它的最大射高为4000米，最小射高30米，最大杀伤斜距5000米，最小为500米；作战转换时间为10秒。
some info on QW-11, 1.477 m long, 10.68 kg, 1.42 kg warhead, whole system is 16.9 kg, altitude 30 to 4000 m, range 500 to 5000 m, "time change operation?" - 10 s
　　在QW-11旁边展出的是前卫家族的另一新成员：QW-18防空导弹。QW-18最大的特点是采用了双波段红外被动导引头，对目标尾焰和蒙皮两处热源进行探测，从而牢牢锁定目标。因此QW-18的抗干扰能力非常强，专家介绍说，它的灵敏度和精确度目前的国内同类型导弹中是最强的，在国际上也是处于领先地位。
another is QW-18, it uses dual band infrared seeker, seeks the tail and the surface of the target, looks on the target, show very good anti-jamming performance. According to experts, it's accuracy, agility is among the best in the world

Eh? A cruise and BM missile counter? Wouldn't that be kinda impossible for a MANPADS? Those things fly very fast and aimming your missile at it will be hard. And shooting it at a BM? Don't see the point exactly

well, this is the Janes article on it, a short version.

SAMs are China's latest arrivals in QW family

By James C O'Halloran Editor Jane's Land-Based Air Defence, Zhuhai
Additional reporting
by Robert Karniol, JDW Asia-Pacific Bureau Chief, Bangkok

The QW-18 is described in Chinese literature obtained at the Zhuhai Air Show in November as having "the strongest anti-jamming capability in present similar models". This capability, the company notes, is "enabled [throughout] the whole course before and after the missile is launched".

The QW-11 is also reported by the company to be the latest member of the QW family that has been developed specifically to counter cruise missiles while retaining the ability to engage low-flying targets such as helicopters, fighters and ground attack aircraft.

No technical information on the QW-1G was available at Zhuhai but photographic evidence suggests that this system has a new launching device (gripstock) suggesting the system has a specific purpose like the others that were displayed.

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some good news surrounding testing of HQ-7. I think Tor-M1 is probably abandonned, because of the success in improving HQ-7. It mentions intercepting 8 out of 8 targets under strong ECM environment. Although, it seems like all of the intercepted targets are planes. I don't think it mentionned any cruise missiles or anything like that.

初冬时节，渤海湾寒风肃杀……

　　11月14日下午，骤然响起的尖厉警报声刺破苍穹，拉开了北空导弹某团实弹演练的帷幕。瞬间，战车轰鸣，雷达齐动，电波频传。百余辆铁甲滨海列阵，数柄长剑仰望长空，蓄势待发……

　　在演练现场，笔者坐进参演战车的座舱，轰鸣声、击键“劈啪”声、电波 “滴答”声冲入耳廓。主打技师孙凡喜紧盯着闪烁变幻的深绿色荧屏。14时27分，一个亮点突然跃上荧屏。“发现目标，方位××，高度××……”孙凡喜话音未落，荧屏上的目标回波突然消失。“糟糕！‘敌’施放电磁干扰，目标丢失，通讯中断。”孙凡喜发出一声惊呼。只见他快速敲击按键，改换备用频率进行变频，启动光瞄……一整套操作一气呵成，联络恢复，目标重现并被锁定……这时笔者才松开攥得微微出汗的拳头，抽空低头看表，用时还不到半分钟。

　　15时24分，耳机中传来4架“敌”机全部被歼的消息。孙凡喜做了个胜利的手势。然而，还没等他喘口气，又传来指挥部的命令：“遭遇‘敌’电子侦察袭扰，令你部携带主战兵器，16时前机动至预备阵地隐蔽待敌。”透过方舱内的监视器，笔者可以清晰看到，顷刻间阵地上空火光冲天，形成了道道烟雾迷障。几辆外形逼真、动动停停的假车辆悄然显现。同时一辆辆撤收兵器的战车披上伪装网，分散编组，混杂于令“敌”机难辨的假目标中，加大油门轰鸣着朝预定阵地集结，车后卷起滚滚烟尘……

　　15时50分，阵地占领未稳，传来上级通报：“敌”4批目标从不同方位发起第二波次突袭……团野战自动化指挥方舱中，气氛骤然紧张，战勤人员各司其位，指令声此起彼伏。在方舱左侧的大幅电子显示屏上，不同批次目标的方位、速度等作战诸元一览无余，红色标示的目标航线分外醒目，不断地变幻延伸。参谋林山抽空告诉笔者，该团攻关研制的野战自动化指挥方舱具有机动中组网、机动中无线通信和实时指挥控制的功能，大大提高了作战效率。笔者看到，团长邹广坡手持话筒，在大幅地图前摆兵布阵，判断目标威胁程度，进行火力分配，修正作战决心。“×××营构成条件，自行射击！”“明白！”瞬间，道道电波将指令传送至火力单元……

　　暮色四合，疾风劲吹。遥望东南天际，一个米粒般的白点肉眼可辨，缓慢北移。3号光瞄手第一个在目镜中捕获目标，并将其牢牢“咬”住。顷刻，弹筒翘首东南，指向目标。“砰”的一声闷响，导弹喷着烈焰，伴着空气的撕裂声直扑目标……几秒钟后，橘红色的亮点骤然颤动了一下，坠向海面……

　　16时56分，第二批目标闯入布好的天罗地网，瞬间被击个粉碎。

　　17时06分……

　　随着一条条火龙腾空，不到18分钟4个目标依次凌空开花。

　　硝烟散尽，邹团长征衣未解便向笔者介绍说，此次实弹演练圆满完成了抗电子干扰，机动作战，多批次、小间隔连续抗击等几个崭新课题，打出了8发8中的“满堂红”，标志着国产某新型导弹成建制防空作战能力得到大幅提升。

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china seems to have a pretty impenatrable anti air defenses. The eastern chinese seaboard look like 1989 Iraq. Can you compare the air defence of these two countries of different times?

can chinese anti air withstand american air assault