Chinese SAM

tphuang

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MIGleader said:
Typhuang, i have a few questions regarding the hq-9. I know the lnad based varient has a range of 100km, but your also saying the naval varient has a range of 150km...how can that be right?

And what is the PAR that guides the hq-9?
what is the accuracy rate of the naval hq-9?
what is the rate of fire for the naval hq-9(s-300's is 1 missle per 3 seconds).



and btw,
Crazy, this thread discusses SAMs(surface to air missle). since the ks-172 is fired from the air, it is not a SAM, regardless of what it was based off of.
Well, the export version FT-2000 has a range of 120 KM. There is also FT-2000A and FT-2000B. You can imagine that the domestic version should have greater range and better accuracy than 120KM. Kanwa did mention in the other article that land HQ-9 showed superior performance to S-300PMU1 in PLA's own field testing. Not sure if that's true or not.

you can find a JDW article here from Dec 2004 that basically stated FT-2000A/B's range
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Anyhow, Sinodefence mentionned that the missile for HQ-9 has a slant range of 200 KM. If the naval radar is superior to the land based ones, then you can say that it will be able to make use of the slant range.

As for the other questions, I guess there is no definitive answers to those right now.
 

MIGleader

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Er...yes and no. The hq-15 is a chinese liscence production of the s-300(pmu-1?). The hq-15 is nto for sale, but the s-300 is.
 

KYli

Brigadier
China's Defense Challenge


The Russian-built S-300 PMU-2 air defense system
by Martin Walker
UPI Editor Emeritus
Washington (UPI) May 26, 2006



At some point this fall, probably in September, China will take delivery of a state-of-the-art anti-aircraft and anti-missile defense system.
For an overall contract that with training and spares will certainly exceed a billion dollars, the Russian-built S-300 PMU-2 air defense system will provide China with the power to challenge the United States for command of the airspace over the Taiwan straits.

The Russian air defense system, reckoned by military specialists to be more advanced than the U.S. Patriot missile system, has an intercept range of up to 120 miles, and according to the Pentagon's latest report on China's military capabilities it provides "increased lethality against tactical ballistic missiles and more effective electronic counter measures."

China's military modernization program also includes Russian-built Sovremenny-2 guided missile destroyers, another eight Russian Kilo-class submarines, and an accelerated production program for China's own Song class of submarines. They carry a new generation of underwater-launched cruise missiles and anti-ship missiles, which represent a serious challenge to the U.S. Navy's traditional command of the waters around the Taiwan Straits and the Yellow Sea.

China is also building its own advanced warships. Last year China launched its own new Luzhou class guided missile destroyer, which incorporates much of what China's naval designers learned from the Sovremenny ships, but it said to have improved electronics that double the effective radar detection range.

China claims to be doing all this with a defense budget of a mere $23 billion, or about five percent of U.S. military spending. Nobody really believes this, but equally there was skepticism of Pentagon estimates that the real level of Chinese spending was around $90 billion a year. But now London's prestigious International Institute for Strategic Studies has published its own detailed estimate, which comes very close to the U.S. estimates.

The IISS study analyzed China's defense budget for the year 2003, and by including figures for China's arms purchases from abroad (including Israel and Brazil as well as Russia), research and development costs and industrial subsidies, it came up with a more realistic figure of $39.6 billion. The IISS then applied the World Bank's purchasing power parity figures, which allow for the fact that China's real costs are far lower, and reckoned that in U.S. terms, China was really spending the equivalent of $75.5 billion.

Bear in mind that in the years since 2003, China's official defense budget has increased by over 10 percent a year (and it has for the past 15 years in a row) so the IISS figures would suggest that the Pentagon's estimate of around $90 billion for this year is bang on target. This would make China the world's number two in defense spending, ahead of Russia, Japan, Britain or France.

"Expenditure is on a sharp upward trend and will remain so in view of popular and elite support for accelerated defense modernization," said IISS director John Chipman at this week's publication of "The Military Balance," the annual IISS survey of global military power.

"As China's strategic presence continues to expand, the question of what resources Beijing is investing in defense capabilities, and to what end, loom larger," Chipman added. "The military dynamic of the U.S.-China relationship remains implicitly but decidedly competitive, and there is little that augurs for change. With that, the risk will grow that this military dynamic will over time have a greater bearing on the tone and content of the relationship as a whole."

China's official military journal recently published an interesting editorial that argued for the development of a Chinese military "commensurate with its international status... and its interests." This is significant for the long-term given that China has major energy investments in Sudan, Angola, Nigeria, Central Asia and Latin America, and its prosperity as a great trading economy and as the world's second biggest oil importer depends on sea routes.

But in the short term, any military analyst looking at China's current force structure and at the 700-plus ballistic missiles facing Taiwan would probably concur with this week's Pentagon report that "In the near term, China's military build-up appears focused on preparing for Taiwan Strait contingencies, including the possibility of US intervention."

"Beijing's sustained military buildup in the area of the Taiwan Strait risks disrupting the status quo," the Pentagon report added, which may be an understatement. The Pentagon report does not add that the status quo has been shifting because of Taiwan's own politics, where the National Assembly has declined to vote the $19 billion in funding for the arms modernization package that President George Bush offered them back in his first term. If Taiwan's politicians are reluctant to vote the money to help defend themselves, American taxpayers are entitled to ask why they should do it for them.

There is no doubt that the Pentagon and the Bush administration are aware of all this and deeply concerned by it. As Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has noted, China's neighbors as well as the Americans are asking what China is intending to do with the surge in its military capabilities.

Dan Blumenthal, formerly senior country director for China and Taiwan in Rumsfeld's office and now with the American Enterprise Institute is warning that "the time may be fast approaching" when the United States has to recognize that its strategy of trying to encourage China to be a responsible player in the global security system is simply not working. Interestingly, Blumenthal's colleague at AEI Karl Zinsmeister has just been named as the new policy director at the White House. But with Iraq and Iran and North Korea already crowding out the agenda, the question is how much attention will the Bush administration can devote to China's military challenge and to the related question of Taiwan's curious reluctance to help meet it.


Source: United Press International
 

tphuang

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something on HQ-9A, not sure if it's true or not

中国强大的新型HQ-9A令西方战机胆寒

据台湾媒体报道,解放军的HQ-9A(红旗九改)地空导弹2001年1月已实际部署地面部队,而解放军海军大型防空舰正在把HQ-9A的海军型搬上舰,就是HHQ-9A,成为中国海军舰队远程区域防空的主力弹种,其最大射程200千米,最大射高40千米,绝对超过美制宙斯盾舰与基德舰上配备的标准-2型防空导弹的70千米的射程,甚至超过了美制爱国者-3型的180千米的最大射距,成为独立于美俄欧系防空导弹家族的另一极。

Just saying that HQ-9A SAM first appeared in 2001 and placed on 052C. It's maximum range is 200 KM, maximum altitude is 40 km, even greater than the range of SM-2 and PAC-3

据传,HQ-9A在1997年少量服役,曾在国土防空作战中参与战备值班,并击落过高空侦察气球和无人侦察机。1999年7月,经过进一步改良的HQ-9首次在西北靶场试射成功?同年8月下旬,在高海拔地区举行靶射,当相控阵雷达在远距(300千米处)发现目标后立即跟踪锁定,导弹随即升空击碎靶机。随后,HQ-9在乌云密布和强风中把来自高中低空不同类型,不同方向的靶机击碎,在场观看的空军司令员刘顺尧上将对其高原作战性能和雷达电子系统快速反应能力留下了深刻印象,并给予高度评价。

- claims to have entered service in small numbers in 1997?
- in July 1999, the improved HQ-9 first successfully intercepted in NorthWest China
- in august in an high altitude test, the phased array radar found target 300 km from the target, tracked it and hit the target
- the high altitude capability and reaction time left good impression
HQ-9的雷达电子设备相当先进可*,发展潜力很大,相比之下,光是数字化显示控制台技术,S-300系列就比其落后5-10年的差距。为了使综合性能超过S-300,HQ-9又有了推进系统的技术革新,如建立了HTPB高能固体燃料生产线?采用高强度纤维/环氧复合材料发动机壳?把高冲质比喷管技术实用化,采用新产品全面减轻结构重量,把制导由“惯性+指令+TVM”改进成“惯性+指令+主动雷达导引”等。改进后的HQ-9A一跃成为世界先进的双重用途(反飞机与反导弹,含战术弹道导弹)防空导弹系统。
- The HQ-9 radar is very advanced, has good improvement potential, all digital control system, S-300's control system is 5-10 years behind this, the integrated capability surpasses that of S-300, HQ-9 uses improved technology
- guidance changed from "inertial guidance+midcourse correction+TVM" to "guidance+correction+ARH"
- the modified HQ-9A became an advanced (anti-aircraft, anti-missile, anti-bm?) SAM
HQ-9A的强大抗干扰能力,远大的杀伤空域,巨大的弹头威力(180千克),和潜在的后续发展,使台湾当局“决战境外”的所谓“新战略”成为一厢情愿的自欺欺人的空谈。最近台湾军头曾哀叹,从今以后台战机过海峡中线已成为不可能,其所指明意上是S-300PMUI,然而实际上是指HQ-9A,特别是以IDF携载新式天剑-2A(TJ-2A)反辐射空地导弹进行防空压制的“野鼬小组”更是胆战心惊!这是因为台湾的所谓二代战机的电子干扰能力不能有效干扰HQ-9A的大型相控阵雷达(发射机峰值功率1000千瓦,平均功率60千瓦),该雷达采用全相参脉冲间频率捷变(FA)技术排除瞄准式干扰,针对主波束和旁瓣对消天线具有极佳空间选择能力?具有抗杂波干扰,欺骗式干扰,消除消极干扰,诱骗反辐射导弹能力?另外HQ-9A的雷达发射功率异常强大,其发出的电磁波具有美俄与欧洲雷达所没有的“烧穿能力”,能够完全压制机动能力极强的航空平台的小功率干扰机,如台湾IDF(台湾自制“经国号”)机载小功率干扰机,美制F-16,甚至法制幻影2000V型和最新型F-22的机载小功率干扰机也可以被其有效压制,综合电子反制(ECCM)能力极强。因此,中国绝对有理由为拥有一代天骄HQ-9A而自豪.
- has a huge warhead (180 kg)
- ROCAF is more afriad of HQ-9A than S-300PMU1?
- TJ-2A ARM might have problem with this
- the 2nd generation ROCAF fighters (IDF, F-16, M2K)'s ECM will not be able to disrupt the powerful radar of HQ-9A
 

chicket9

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What source is that? If a Taiwanese source, maybe quite reasonable...least ROCAF sees it as a threat...

Hmmm, that article seems beyond real...I mean i'd love to see HQ-9 have better performance and range than the PAC-3 anyday...
 

Totoro

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chicket9 said:
Hmmm, that article seems beyond real...I mean i'd love to see HQ-9 have better performance and range than the PAC-3 anyday...

Well, it has better range over pac-3 already, that's for sure. :D Heck, hawk batteries have better range. Then, depending on how you rate range as part of performance, it might have performance edge too.

As for the claimed specifications, well, we can only guess... 40km ceiling seems too much, im not sure even pmu2 has that much. Even 150km range and 25km ceiling would be enough in my opinion. Radar detection range of 300 km seems quite on par with s300 radars, so nothing weird there.

The fact that its a newer system that has the benefit of having some components being built from scratch, with all that current computer tech offers would make it plausible that integration is indeed better, with better guidance and so on.

ARH versus TVM? Hard to tell. Actually i must say i'm not sure why is TVM kept in all the latest s300 and pac-2 variants. It should be inferior to arh in performance, except the possibility of engagements versus radar stealthy targets at shorter ranges from the battery radar... it would be ideal if missile, while having arh, still was capable to be used in sarh mode as well. I would guess price is a concern, with arh guidance being much more expensive than tvm, per each missile. But then again, if china can afford to field pl-12 in great numbers, why couldn't it afford to put similar avionics in hq9 missiles?

One great advantage of arh (or any other selfguiding system for that matter) is that outside detection and midcourse guidance can be used. No need for battery to turn on the radar at all. An awacs sees the target, missile is fired, awacs sends midcourse corrections, then missile goes active in the end. I do suspect that comment about better integration might be talking about just this very option. It is how long range SAM network SHOULD be designed, to maximize the benefit stemming from its max theoretical range. Not to mention that sam batteries themselves would have a longer lifespan. :D
 
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tphuang

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some rumour
那次打靶,坚定了信心 【漏斗子两个团开始换装了,“三代”,不会再是300了,应该是红酒。看来,那次打靶空军很满意,否则不会那么急,一下子上两个

kind of widely discussed. Basically, there was a while back that some news regarding to HQ-9 doing well on some tests. Apparently, it shot down 5 out of 6 targets. Well, now, this rumour is saying that two of the regiments are getting replaced with HQ-9 instead of S-300. Who knows, just rumours.
 

Indianfighter

Junior Member
Totoro said:
ARH versus TVM? Hard to tell. Actually i must say i'm not sure why is TVM kept in all the latest s300 and pac-2 variants.
The reason for the usage of TVM technology instead of ARH in anti-ballistic missiles is that the task for manouevering the missile is done by the home radar, instead of the missile itself. Thus, no system is present onboard the missile that calculates its manouevers, and hence there is reduction in the cost per missile.

However, the missile must relay by datalink, its position to the home-radar. This position is its own position relative to the reflected radar waves from the target. The home-radar sends the manouevering signals back to the missile through the same datalink.

In such a system, jamming is difficult since the guidance is performed by the home radar, instead of the missile. Thus, accuracy would be high.
It should be inferior to arh in performance, except the possibility of engagements versus radar stealthy targets at shorter ranges from the battery radar...
The above statement is inaccurate. Detection of targets that are at long ranges from the home radar can be done more accurately by the home radar rather than an active radar, because the power of the beams of the home radar is more and can thus detect and track targets further than the radar beams of a missile, which are much weaker in comparison.
One great advantage of arh (or any other selfguiding system for that matter) is that outside detection and midcourse guidance can be used. No need for battery to turn on the radar at all.
An ARH missile may indeed be viewed as a missile with SARH guidance during the midcourse and active guidance in the terminal phase.

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crobato

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The advantage of TVM+Command Guidance over ARH in SAMs lies in targeting low flying targets. If the target is low flying, the ARH radar has to "look down" and deal with ground clutter. But if you have a stationary ground radar, the radar is always looking up at the bare sky and thus they get a clearer signal.

Until seeker electronics advance to the point they can deal with ground clutter effectively, ARH on SAMs have resisted adoption until this point.
 
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