airsuperiority
Captain
As a model hobbyist, it drives me insane because I don't know whether I should include that or not on the Su-35 I'm attempting to build on.
Chinese purchase of Su-35
- Thread starter flyzies
- Start date
Equation
Lieutenant General
Does the model kit automatically comes with or without it already?
airsuperiority
Captain
It came without it. Technically, Any realistic Su-35 kit out there is basically a Su-27 kit which requires a lot of aftermarket parts and modifications. The TVC nozzles, the tail sting are some examples
MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Here is a link for you to use it in your models lots of pictures
Russian version of the SU-35 China sale
Chinese power at Russia's expense?
Heated debate has been simmering on the sale of 48 new Chinese Su-35 fighters Artem Ivanovsky
26.03.2012
Recall that as recently as July 2010, Russia announced that further arms of China will be terminated. However, the temptation to earn big money (the sum of the alleged contract is estimated at $ 4 billion) makes Russian politicians and gunsmiths fluctuate.
In addition, one should take into account another important fact. March 20 expert at the Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies Andrei Frolov said that the events of the so-called "Arab Spring" Russian arms exporters have suffered serious losses, "Russia has lost the Libyan market. Loss of profit only on Libya $ 4 billion because they were signed and had to be signed quite a few contracts, including the Su-35. The next difficult moment - is Syria, because the developments around the country do not allow the military-technical cooperation to develop fully. "
It seems that the desire to compensate for the above-mentioned financial loss is the main motivation once a risky deal with the Chinese.
However, the emergence of new information about the sale of fighter jets to China provoked sharp criticism from experts. The director of the Center for Analysis of World Arms Trade (TSAMTO) Igor Korotchenko, in an interview, "RIA Novosti" said the real intentions of the Chinese side may be unfair. "Obviously, there is necessary to provide additional guarantees that go beyond the normal obligations. This is due to the fact that, despite the significant amount of cost possible deliveries of Su-35 to China, Russia to further losses in the markets of third countries, in the case of China copying our aircraft can be much bigger on the condition that China will solve the problem with a lag of the field of engine and avionics for fighters "- said Korochenko. He further predicted that in the near future Russia will face stiff competition from China in the markets of the countries where the domestic defense industry has recently held a leading position, "Beijing has already competes with Russia on arms markets in Asia, Africa and Latin America, offering military products below the cost of Russian counterparts. It should be noted that the cost of the most sought after in the global arms market Chinese production by 20-40% below the Russian counterparts, with whom they were copied or created on their basis. " Moreover, Korochenko even suggested that the delivery of the Su-35 to China could pose a potential threat to the security of Russia itself.
Indeed, the history of Russian arms exports to the Middle Kingdom is replete with instances of outright theft of our Chinese advanced military technologies and new types of weapons. Examples of this abound. For instance, produced since 2008 by Chinese Aircraft Corporation fighter J-11 ("Jian-11") - this is a copy of Russian Su-27. Similarly, it is no secret that the J-15 - is copied to the Su-33 aircraft earlier J-6 and J-7, respectively, the MiG-19 and MiG-21. Great resonance in the Russian aviation industry has caused a case to the competition in 2009 for the supply of arms Burma: Rangoon then chose between the MiG-29 and his Chinese "clone» FC-1. The latter was worth three and a half times cheaper. Not to mention the fact, the basis of China's large shipbuilding program, which provides for the construction of 14 nuclear multi-purpose attack aircraft carriers, is stolen Russian technology.
As you know, the first Chinese aircraft carrier "Shi Lang" - is nothing like our unfinished after the collapse of the Soviet Union "Varyag". Recall that the unfinished "Varyag" was purchased by the Chinese side in the Ukraine at the price of scrap metal in 1998, and, according to the Beijing planned to convert it into a floating casino.
However, after 13 years, the water was released completely ready for the long voyage modernized aircraft carrier "Shi Lang".
Finally, after repeated blows to the forehead of the Chinese "rake" Russian gunsmiths were forced to take appropriate measures to prevent the diversion of domestic technologies. In 2009, Russia refused to sign a deal with China for the sale of deck-based fighters Su-33 after the Chinese abandoned the acquisition of several dozen aircraft and announced that they wanted to buy a "test batch" of three pieces. In Moscow, immediately suspected that Beijing was not going to buy all the fighters, and intended to simply disassemble and copy those "test" copies, then to make their own, just the same. After the "incident" with the J-11, I copy the Russian Su-27, Russia has officially notified China that the production of copies of the fighters is a violation of inter-state agreements, and promised to start legal procedures to protect intellectual property. In March 2010, the Justice Ministry has finalized amendments to the law "On Military-Technical Cooperation with Foreign States", which aims to other states in the sphere of military-technical cooperation and the added protection of intellectual property sold weapons. "China has a setting for the development of their industry, so China reduces imports of arms, substituting his own weapons. They buy only what they can not produce themselves. For Russia, it threatens to further decrease in imports to China. In the future, we will have a new competitor that is unlikely to recall what we must "- complained the representative of" Rosoboronexport "Sergei Vasiliev.
However, the Russian arms once again decided to try to play in the proposed "Chinese comrades," the game in a thimble. For the upcoming party started to develop appropriate media background. Thus, the chief editor of "Arms Export" Andrey Frolov, in an interview, "RIA Novosti" expressed in that spirit that the sale of the Su-35 China does not threaten Russia. "The defense industry of China has made significant progress in copying and producing Soviet and Russian fighter planes, but was never able to develop a reliable engine for these aircraft. China has bought engines from Russia. In addition, the Chinese defense industry can not provide domestic fighters own systems avionics world class "- with such an optimistic statement made by Mr. Frolov. The question arises: what is it - stupidity or naivety?
First the interest of the Chinese military to the Su-35 became known in 2008 during the Air Show Airshow China. Then the Chinese Air Force Commander Colonel General Xu Qiliang visited the booth of "Sukhoi" and learned about the possibilities of a new multi-purpose fighter and praised its flight and performance characteristics. Then in 2010 there was an informal information about the desire of China to buy Su-35 game. However, the only evidence of this was made in February 2012, when the first deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Alexander Fomin said: "In 2011, the Chinese side expressed its readiness to purchase a certain number of these aircraft and approached us with a relevant proposal." We emphasize that the Su-35 - the latest fourth-generation fighter. Capable of speeds up to 2.5 thousand kilometers per hour, range - 3.4 thousand km, combat radius - about 1.6 thousand km. Armed with 30-millimeter cannon, has 12 points of suspension for surface weapons, including missiles and bombs. Nothing like the Air Force of China do not.
Thus, the situation is clear: in Beijing expect a "big jump" (as they say in such cases MAO) to overcome the lag of its air forces in terms of the availability of the latest fighter by copying the advanced Russian developments. And this way - the most direct and cheapest . Another question: whether it is Russia? This, indeed, is the crux of the problem.
It should be noted that the potential risks to our country in sales of advanced weapons to China are not limited solely by financial losses. Qualitative modernization of China's air force threatens Russia's security - a point of view expressed in the article of the same name for the online magazine "Military Review" Russian expert Alexander Samsonov. In his opinion, one of the main tasks that are put before the Chinese Air Force, among other things, is to achieve air superiority over Russia. He supports his claim by the following example: in China, formed a special flight training center where training in aerial combat opponents of Chinese aircraft pilots act on Russian Su-27. In addition, the very logic of development and modernization of China Air Force aims to conduct not defensive and offensive warfare: "China is modernizing its air force with remarkable speed. Now they are able to strike at targets which are at a considerable distance outside of their territory. " Assessing the potential threat posed by China to the Russian Air Force, Samsonov said: "Air China is rapidly replacing our air force with a second place in the world in the number of aircraft of the 4th generation, the presence of" headroom "in China in the form of planes 3rd generation which can be sacrificed to keep our air force and air defense forces, to force them to expend ammunition.
Air China is superior to ours in the development of advanced systems: UAVs, orbital planes. They are going to introduce the first aircraft carrier, and followed by another two, and we only have one and create new prospects can not be traced.
If the trend is not brokenfooted, our army will be inferior in the air, not only quantitatively but also qualitatively, the potential enemy. "
Here are other known facts. Of the seven military regions of China are the two most powerful - with headquarters in Beijing and Shenyang - near the border with Russia. The first is focused on our Siberian Military District, the second - on the Far East. These districts account for four of the nine tanks and six of nine mechanized divisions, six of the twelve armored brigades Army PLA. Another two armored divisions and one armored brigade are part of the Lanzhou Military Region (occupies the western part of the country, is focused on Central Asia, Mongolia and Siberia to the west of Lake Baikal). Very eloquent commentary can serve as a fragment of a resonant articles Lieutenant General Viktor Sobolev's "State of the Armed Forces of Russia," published on March 13, many analytical portals that explore issues of defense: "A total of ten Russian Ground Forces Army, and each of them must be 3 -4 teams, but in some armies are more, such as the 58th Army - seven, but in the 29th, the management of which now occupies the building of the former headquarters of the Siberian Military District in Chita, only one. One team is in the area from Ulan - Ude to Belogorska - which is about three thousand kilometers of the border. In the case of an armed conflict with China, the Chinese will be very difficult to find it, to capture or kill ... not funny. "And this kind of warning about the potential threat from the China - are not uncommon.
Meanwhile, March 6, the first deputy director of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation Alexander Fomin informed the press that "China has expressed a desire to purchase a new air defense missile systems S-400" Triumph "of Russian production in 2015." It is noteworthy that on March 21, Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov said that the Armed Forces has just begun enacting anti-aircraft missile systems S-400.
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vesicles
Colonel
FC1 is a copy of Mig29? Where did this even come from? FC1 is completely different from Mig 29... It doesn't even look alike...
And the new Chinese CV is "Shi Lang"??
When was this article written?
vesicles
Colonel
OK, this is very misleading. Yes, the Beijing and Shenyang military regions are better equipped. that is because they are in charge of protecting the capital city of China, which is coincidentally "Beijing". And Shenyang is only about several hundred miles to its north. Another fact: out of all the military regions, both Beijing and Shenyang military regions happen to be the closest to Korea, where technically war has not stopped yet. And Beijing and Shenyang are also only a couple hundred miles west of Chinese east coast, from where most of its attackers historically have come. On the other hand, the Russian border is located north of Beijing and west of Shenyang. The terrain in this area happens to be very mountainous. If you have ever been to the Great Walls in Beijing, you will see mountains after mountains. If you have not, Google "the Great Walls in Beijing" and you will see what kind of mountainous terrain it is. Mechanized divisions and tanks are almost useless in these areas. It is clear as day that the advanced land weapons equipped by the Beijing and Shenyang military regions are not intended for the Russians, but the potential enemies who would come from the east, where is mostly flat plains.
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@ MiG-29 !
To admit it is indeed funny that a source posted by Yourself is final proof for the unreliability of Russian sources.
I know this can't be generalised by a single report like this but - as already posted by several others - it is a reason to be sceptical. Yes we need to admit that they are correct sometimes but it's especially a report like the one You posted that is THE reason for many here to take everything what comes from Russian sources with a larger grain of salt, even from official sources.
As such give Yourself a break in this repeated and constant praying to Russian sources !
Don't get me wrong and it is not that I gloat over Your mistake ... but it simply shows that Your sourses are indeed not allmighty, allknowing and always correct and even more more reliable than other unofficial sources without higher blessing. They are not better or worse than others and that's not an opinion but simply a fact.
Interesting however would be WHY such respected "sources" so often tell so much BS ??? Is it due to political motivation, simply due to the fcat that they do not know everything as some assume or that they intentionally publish mistakes, but to tell the FC-1 a Chinese "clone" of the MiG-29 or the Liaoning "Shi Lang" is simply wrong and as such questions the reliability of the whole report.
Deino
To admit it is indeed funny that a source posted by Yourself is final proof for the unreliability of Russian sources.
I know this can't be generalised by a single report like this but - as already posted by several others - it is a reason to be sceptical. Yes we need to admit that they are correct sometimes but it's especially a report like the one You posted that is THE reason for many here to take everything what comes from Russian sources with a larger grain of salt, even from official sources.
As such give Yourself a break in this repeated and constant praying to Russian sources !
Don't get me wrong and it is not that I gloat over Your mistake ... but it simply shows that Your sourses are indeed not allmighty, allknowing and always correct and even more more reliable than other unofficial sources without higher blessing. They are not better or worse than others and that's not an opinion but simply a fact.
Interesting however would be WHY such respected "sources" so often tell so much BS ??? Is it due to political motivation, simply due to the fcat that they do not know everything as some assume or that they intentionally publish mistakes, but to tell the FC-1 a Chinese "clone" of the MiG-29 or the Liaoning "Shi Lang" is simply wrong and as such questions the reliability of the whole report.
Deino
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MiG-29
Banned Idiot
Deino
First let us not make this a racial thing, Russian sources are not a generalization, say this report.
first i ask you since you might not agree, this
is JF-17 a fighter where there was no Russian input?
Now this translation is from google but you have to understand what Russian sources say and we will use another report
The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers. A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29. Also, representatives from Russian Defense Export said that there was nothing wrong with re-exporting, which is in accordance with the decision of the Russian government. They added that there is no law that says there should be any agreement with Russian manufacturers citing the example of RD-33 that was re-exported to Egypt and was given permission by the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation in 2007. These engines are sold to ...
Deino
check the video
[video=youtube;8Q1z8RHqsjg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1z8RHqsjg[/video]
plus i do not know the extend of Russian help to China throught out SIbnia Chengdu is claimed to have been help
however Но мы далее, для избегания путаницы, будем вес же придерживаться традиционных для нас стандартов. Согласно недавно обнародованным воспоминаниям Лю By Чуэня, ветерана входящего в Чэндунскую авиастроительную корпорацию САС проектного института (Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. CADI, известен также как 611-й Институт), именно в 1989 г. коллективы 611-го и 601-го институтов (второй ныне является подразделением Шэньянской авиастроительной корпорации. SAC) приступили к работам по программе под кодовым названием «2-03». Лю By упоминает; что в июле 1993 с китайская сторона подписала соглашение о сотрудничестве с российским институтом ЦАГИ и АНПК «МиГ» - речь шла о передаче опыта разработки самолетов с использованием систем автоматизированного проектирования и различного расчетного и моделирующего программного обеспечения. Вскоре массированный десант из нескольких десятков российских специалистов прибыл в Китай. С китайской стороны в программе принимало участие 120 инженеров и ученых из многих профильных организаций. Этот интенсивный «обмен опытом» продолжался до февраля 1994 г:
But we're on, to avoid confusion , we will stick with the same weight of our traditional standards. According to a recently released memoirs By Lu Chuan , a veteran entering the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation CAC Design Institute (Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. CADI, also known as the 611 th Institute ) , namely in 1989, teams of the 611 th and 601 institutions ( second now is a division of Shenyang Aircraft Corporation . SAC) began work on the program , code-named " 2-03 ." By Liu mentions , that in July 1993, with the Chinese side has signed a cooperation agreement with the Russian Institute of TsAGI and ANPK "MiG" - it was about the transfer of experience in the development of aircraft using computer-aided design and various design and modeling software . Soon a massive landing of several dozen Russian experts arrived in China . On the Chinese side took part in the program 120 engineers and scientists from many professional societies . This intensive " exchange of experience" lasted until February 1994
I do not know if the FC-1 has some russian pedigree to the level Pogyiosan called it a "copy"
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Again again ... once again the same tactic: Instead of simply accepting Your source is wrong, that it made a mistake or is not completly correct You assumed, You post pages, links and videos completely irrelevat to the discussed thing again in order to led awai from the. Anyway to tell the Liaoning "Shi Lang" is as wrong as well as calling the FC-1 a MiG-29 clone or even "extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29" ... this is simply wrong, simply stupid; FACT!
YES the FC-1 has Russian input ... no-one denies or denied that but it is irrelevant to the thing above.
YES there is and was Sino-Russian cooperation on this and other projects too ... no-one denies or denied that but it is irrelevant to the thing above !
But even if Pogyiosan would call the FC-1 a "copy" it would nevertheless be wrong (Why he would tell so is another story !) but the FC-1 is never a MiG-29-copy, MiG-29-clone or whatever related - even a blind man sees that - as such regardless what links You now post in this regard none of them can make Your links reliable again ! SORRY..
By the way I know - and I admire him very much - but Paralay is also not allknowing or ever correct; nor is he "official" and as such in Your eyes better than any other Chinese source.
Deino
YES the FC-1 has Russian input ... no-one denies or denied that but it is irrelevant to the thing above.
YES there is and was Sino-Russian cooperation on this and other projects too ... no-one denies or denied that but it is irrelevant to the thing above !
But even if Pogyiosan would call the FC-1 a "copy" it would nevertheless be wrong (Why he would tell so is another story !) but the FC-1 is never a MiG-29-copy, MiG-29-clone or whatever related - even a blind man sees that - as such regardless what links You now post in this regard none of them can make Your links reliable again ! SORRY..
By the way I know - and I admire him very much - but Paralay is also not allknowing or ever correct; nor is he "official" and as such in Your eyes better than any other Chinese source.
Deino
Uh...what was this thread about anyways?
Contract Negotiations 101...or has it progressed to Contract Negotiations 321 yet?
Seriously, this "potential" SU-35 deal for China has been hammered to death. IMHO, it's almost be best to just suspend the thread until there was some kind of actual official news on it...like China and Russia announcing a signed contract.
Otherwise it wilk just keep going around and around and around and around and around and...well, you get the idea.
As an example fo something we are discussing here on a thread about a potential (very slim pitential IMHO) for an SU-35 deal, look at this idea that somehow the FC-1 is a clone of the Mig-29 that is being discussed.
Mig-29 taking off:
FC-1 Taking off
Mig-29 in flight
FC-1 in flight
I mean, really? Seriously?
Let's see. The Mig-29 has two engines and two vertical stabilzers. The intakes are below the fuselage under the leading edge of the wing, the Mig-29 has no missile rails on its wingtips, and it has a bubble canopy.
The FC-1 has a single engine, a single vertical stabilozer, its intakes are on the lower sides of the aircraft in front of the leading edge of the wing, there are missile rails on the wingtips, and it's canopy is not a bubble.
Yep, those sneaky, rascally Chinese and Pakistanis have pulled off a copy of a Russian aircraft that is the most dissimilar, different, and completely disparate copy in histroy....but I gues that is just camouflage or something, because apparently the Chinese just had to copy the Russians you know?
Contract Negotiations 101...or has it progressed to Contract Negotiations 321 yet?
Seriously, this "potential" SU-35 deal for China has been hammered to death. IMHO, it's almost be best to just suspend the thread until there was some kind of actual official news on it...like China and Russia announcing a signed contract.
Otherwise it wilk just keep going around and around and around and around and around and...well, you get the idea.
As an example fo something we are discussing here on a thread about a potential (very slim pitential IMHO) for an SU-35 deal, look at this idea that somehow the FC-1 is a clone of the Mig-29 that is being discussed.
Mig-29 taking off:
FC-1 Taking off
Mig-29 in flight
FC-1 in flight
I mean, really? Seriously?
Let's see. The Mig-29 has two engines and two vertical stabilzers. The intakes are below the fuselage under the leading edge of the wing, the Mig-29 has no missile rails on its wingtips, and it has a bubble canopy.
The FC-1 has a single engine, a single vertical stabilozer, its intakes are on the lower sides of the aircraft in front of the leading edge of the wing, there are missile rails on the wingtips, and it's canopy is not a bubble.
Yep, those sneaky, rascally Chinese and Pakistanis have pulled off a copy of a Russian aircraft that is the most dissimilar, different, and completely disparate copy in histroy....but I gues that is just camouflage or something, because apparently the Chinese just had to copy the Russians you know?
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