Chinese purchase of Su-35

MiG-29 said:

Most of the time i am polite, in fact if i see a poster whose only intent is create white noise, i just ignore his comments.

Second to be honest this is just a forum, this is not Bombardier, or any air force, here is just a forum where people comment regardless they are right or wrong. at school, i have to give concrete answers, if i have the first theorem of calculus, i have to solve it as well as if i have a matrix system of 5 or 6 equations however real life is like that concrete, unambiguous.

About this deal, i will tell you, the Russian media have said they are trying to sign the 2nd contract.

At this moment the possibility might be still 50% that the deal could not happen.

Now i do not know up to what degree you know math or physics, but the Maxwell equations are pretty complicate, the math basis are ultra complex, for you to claim Russian technicians can not make the Su-35 to have a RCS of a football well, well, is not that easy, and is not a fact they can not specially since you have not access to their technology, to give you a simple example most people forget that Maxwell waves are a cross product too, many engineers sometimes do not understand well the math of these equations.


Stealth is related to those waves and the plank constant, any way because this is a forum you can not get people happy all the time.

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I have to say, you really do have an extremely high tolerance for rudeness thrown at you and you do still remain polite all the time, and that's something I respect. I mostly don't know what you're talking about, and sometimes I do even join them and ridicule you for some of your habits and flaws, but how it rarely gets into your head is amazing, and I do appreciate your politeness when you display it, to be fair.

MiG-29 said:

Most of the time i am polite, in fact if i see a poster whose only intent is create white noise, i just ignore his comments.

Second to be honest this is just a forum, this is not Bombardier, or any air force, here is just a forum where people comment regardless they are right or wrong. at school, i have to give concrete answers, if i have the first theorem of calculus, i have to solve it as well as if i have a matrix system of 5 or 6 equations however real life is like that concrete, unambiguous.

About this deal, i will tell you, the Russian media have said they are trying to sign the 2nd contract.

At this moment the possibility might be still 50% that the deal could not happen.

Now i do not know up to what degree you know math or physics, but the Maxwell equations are pretty complicate, the math basis are ultra complex, for you to claim Russian technicians can not make the Su-35 to have a RCS of a football well, well, is not that easy, and is not a fact they can not specially since you have not access to their technology, to give you a simple example most people forget that Maxwell waves are a cross product too, many engineers sometimes do not understand well the math of these equations.


Stealth is related to those waves and the plank constant, any way because this is a forum you can not get people happy all the time.

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Well Mig, in this post whether or not there is ever a deal is irrelevant, my point is that you not only assume you know more than us local yocals, you are indiscrete enough to say so out loud. I'm not an engineer, but I am a long time (57 years) Air Force Brat. I know the hardware, I could give a rats ax about the math or Maxwell's theorem. There are some very bright and articulate men on this forum, their humility and kindness is like an aura, I don't pretend to be one of those, but I work very hard to be respectful, and to be a gentleman, because that's how my Daddy taught me that real men behaved toward one another. Its not your theorums or math that offend, its your lack of due respect for your brothers, and Siege, honestly bro, Sino Defense sets a standard that DT would do well to emulate, I like some of those guys and post over-there occasionally, but there is no real sense of respect, or a desire to teach the less informed, our mods are kind and gracious gentlemen, seeking to encourage thoughted, respectful dialogue in the true spirit of an open forum, I for one value their respect and friendship, and would like to think that I would welcome each one of you into my home for a meal and a spirited, good natured discussion. My Dad was an IP in the C-130, I believe his two best friends, were his flight engineers, whom he realized were as much students of the airplane as he was, and whom he depended on to keep all four turnin and burnin, I can remember how appreciative he was when the airplane broke, and they figured out how to keep it all from going south, that they loved and respected him was also obvious to me, even as a child, he would have never put them out there, he always brought them home. brat

Blackstone said:

MIG-29 presents different perspectives that are not usually inline with resident PLA fanbois, so he draws fire; some deserved, and some not.

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I respect that. And I respect most forumers anywhere. What I hate is the lack of respect anyone had for us. Note that, I like China, I am not against Russia and I think both countries are great, but I do not like someone coming in and try to push one country down over the other, it is wrong.

Secondly, when I asked a question, if that someone didn't know the answer, fine with me, just tell me that he/she didn't know... instead of simply ignoring me (like I am a sub-human) or claiming that I am playing games or making white noise and things like that, or coming in with claims that had so many times been debunked and carry on and on and on like an old grandfather clock and derailing entire thread.

rhino123 said:

I respect that. And I respect most forumers anywhere. What I hate is the lack of respect anyone had for us. Note that, I like China, I am not against Russia and I think both countries are great, but I do not like someone coming in and try to push one country down over the other, it is wrong.

Secondly, when I asked a question, if that someone didn't know the answer, fine with me, just tell me that he/she didn't know... instead of simply ignoring me (like I am a sub-human) or claiming that I am playing games or making white noise and things like that, or coming in with claims that had so many times been debunked and carry on and on and on like an old grandfather clock and derailing entire thread.

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I agree. Basic and simple manners but actually going a long way to represent how a person is. I don't really have problems with whichever preferences people have, but I do have issues with people enforcing their thoughts or to deride others in the process. "I like Apple. Samsung sucks."<-- That will be what I'm talking about. First statement is expression of preference, which I'm fine. However, the second statement represents infringing others' freedom of being able to appreciate Samsung without their respective preferences being bashed, and that's something I have issues with. It's also something that people does and often. For that reason, sometimes I get quite offended when anti-China and pro-China fans assert their opinions without either fair arguments, or just simply rhetorics or disrespecting others in the process. As much as I find anti-China bashers as ignorant, I honestly don't see the pro-China camp any better(nor deserving any ounces of my sympathy and respect) when they do the same thing. I still vividly recall when some members argued how the West mistreated China or do not recognize China as a proper culture that deserves its own respect despite its shortcomings, but then they went on and ridiculed the notion of HK as its own culture when I expressed it to them, as in their eyes they didn't recognize HK as having a culture of its own. Maybe towards them they see HK as under China, but that doesn't mean HK doesn't have a culture of its own. A culture is the same as each place or person having their own identity, as every city, everyone, every place, every nation, are different from one another. Either way, at that point no words could express my utmost contempt, hurt, disrespect, and disregard I have of these individuals, no matter how they "might" have posted intelligently earlier. To me, it's equivalent of Holocaust denial, and they had lost credibility and the intellectual hat they deserved earlier. Also, the biggest reason is because with myself coming from HK, what they did had essentially DENIED recognizing my culture, my right to exist, my right to express my identity, and who I am, and my right to feel how I feel. If we think people who denied Palestinians of their identities or the Israelis, consider that the same way I feel when these members spoke their words. Do I respect them? How do these members deserve respect? It's also hypocritical for them to call out on others yet they are repeating the same crimes they condemn others with. Of course it goes further, as they are quick to dismiss or derail constructive discussions on China's weaknesses, which in fact could've been some very meaningful discussions because they could've contribute their understandings of China and thus drive a discussion deeper for all the hungry folks. Unfortunately that's not the case, and I'd say this is an issue every side is guilty of technically. (this is not to mention there are direct bashings of the West couple times by some regular members too, just as there were for folks who were bashing China)
At the same time, people should respect the discussions and permit topics to yield when they hit a dead end, or at least not to drag it on or attempt to revive with off-tangent substances. It can be quite exhaustive because no one's winning anything.. just spending more time in the chair. Yes I know I'm guilty of what I call out on, so I'll remember to pay attention to that myself as well.
Anyways I kind of hope everyone can respect each other more, as this is just a forum. We don't get paid, and why don't we just sit around and talk and learn, rather than going for each others' throats?

Air Force Brat said:

Well Mig, in this post whether or not there is ever a deal is irrelevant, my point is that you not only assume you know more than us local yocals, you are indiscrete enough to say so out loud. I'm not an engineer, but I am a long time (57 years) Air Force Brat. I know the hardware, I could give a rats ax about the math or Maxwell's theorem. There are some very bright and articulate men on this forum, their humility and kindness is like an aura, I don't pretend to be one of those

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Look i am polite. however the reason i am attacked is because many people here have an opinion, i said opinion because is just that, that China won`t buy Su-35s.


I get attacked not because i am wrong, but because i have challenged that opinion upon an equally valid concept, so they get angry and they start attacking even crying wolf due to their lack of good manners and education and more important better argument and sources.

I have questioned you, you hold an opinion as well, you claimed Su-35 has no RCS as small as a football.

I questioned you, did you validate the RCS of Su-35 for Sukhoi? do you work with Su-35 as Vladimir Vikulin of Orpe Tekhnologya or Vyacheslav Samsonov deputy director of Stelko?

I can respect your opinion upon the basis you do not believe the Russian claims, but do not ask me to buy your opinion without some technical basis.
Since i know aerospace is a multidisciplinary activity, i know that even you are a pilot, you can not be designer, mechanic and pilot at the same time, aerospace is a collective work where people of different specialties pool their knowledge to make an aircraft fly.

Plus i know you have no access to Su-35 therefore the validity of your statement and opinion is low and i do not buy it.

Same is the purchase of Su-35, i know the closest sources are from Rostec or roboronexport.
While i respect the right of others to doubt the Russian reports it does not mean their opinion is 100% certain or a fact.

why? simple they are not official sources, just people opining the news.

And is not fact that Russian sources always are wrong, that is a ridiculous position they hold.

I can respect if they say in my opinion it won`t happen, however i have no reason to accept as a fact it might not happen.


Because Russian sources are claiming they are negotiating the deal.

So to answer you, is yes i am respectful, you should in the other hand see, the other side has the lack of maturity that they slander me or even discuss me without presenting a decent proof that the deal won`t happen

MiG-29 said:

Look i am polite. however the reason i am attacked is because many people here have an opinion, i said opinion because is just that, that China won`t buy Su-35s.


I get attacked not because i am wrong, but because i have challenged that opinion upon an equally valid concept, so they get angry and they start attacking even crying wolf due to their lack of good manners and education and more important better argument and sources.

I have questioned you, you hold an opinion as well, you claimed Su-35 has no RCS as small as a football.

I questioned you, did you validate the RCS of Su-35 for Sukhoi? do you work with Su-35 as Vladimir Vikulin of Orpe Tekhnologya or Vyacheslav Samsonov deputy director of Stelko?

I can respect your opinion upon the basis you do not believe the Russian claims, but do not ask me to buy your opinion without some technical basis.
Since i know aerospace is a multidisciplinary activity, i know that even you are a pilot, you can not be designer, mechanic and pilot at the same time, aerospace is a collective work where people of different specialties pool their knowledge to make an aircraft fly.

Plus i know you have no access to Su-35 therefore the validity of your statement and opinion is low and i do not buy it.

Same is the purchase of Su-35, i know the closest sources are from Rostec or roboronexport.
While i respect the right of others to doubt the Russian reports it does not mean their opinion is 100% certain or a fact.

why? simple they are not official sources, just people opining the news.

And is not fact that Russian sources always are wrong, that is a ridiculous position they hold.

I can respect if they say in my opinion it won`t happen, however i have no reason to accept as a fact it might not happen.


Because Russian sources are claiming they are negotiating the deal.

So to answer you, is yes i am respectful, you should in the other hand see, the other side has the lack of maturity that they slander me or even discuss me without presenting a decent proof that the deal won`t happen

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No. You are twisting the truth again.

I ask you a simple question, I took the trouble to quote from Russian media. You tell me to learn Russian? And tell me to know Rostec before you talk to me. Tell me... which part of that is being polite to me?

I pointed out that Rostec was echoing what CCTV had claimed before and CCTV being a media too, even if many would argue that it was state television, but in my point of view was still not accurate, that the Chinese had ordered the Su-35 during Chairman Xi's visit to Moscow. But even the Russian side admitted that there is no such deal or talk. And Su-35 or Lada submarine was not being brought up in the talk between Putin and Xi. So that proof that Rostec is not 100% accurate too.

So my question is simple... when do you tell what source that Rostec member are accurate and what is no accurate.

My another question is also very simple, did China sign initial deal with Russia when they bought Su-27 and Su-30 from Russia and only sign a confirm deal a couple of years down the road to get delivery going. If they didn't, why would they do it with Su-35 as was claimed by Rostec.

Simple, simple questions. If you have no idea of why, it is fine. But you are avoiding these questions and accusing me of playing white game and making white noise. And you called that polite? Polite to me? Politeness to someone, means to totally ignore that fella treating him like sub-human... I get it now.

For your information I respect all opinions from everyone, because not only you have education and good upbringing that you so feverishly accuse others of lacking. What I want from you is simple... just show some respect to others. Because being polite in what you type is not enough... being polite and well mannered in your thinking and action is the most important... I can politely slap you across the face... does that mean polite to you? I can politely slander you... does that means polite and well manner?

So... are you going to ignore this post again and say that I lack maturity?

Of course coming back to this topic...

Rostec had claimed that a contract might be signed in 2014, fine... I can wait to 2014 and see if the deal falls through or not. And if it did fall through, good for China and Russia. If not... oh well... life goes on.

And that is that... Happy now? Or are you again going to show that you are the higher moral ground and ignore this post again?

rhino123 said:

No. You are twisting the truth again.

I ask you a simple question, I took the trouble to quote from Russian media. You tell me to learn Russian? And tell me to know Rostec before you talk to me. Tell me... which part of that is being polite to me?

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First let me tell you this, if you want i reply you, learn to treat me politely, you can disagree with me, i am not against to accept you hold your opinions, however do not slander me, which is basically what you are doing


«Рособоронэкспорт» и представители Китая продолжают переговоры по закупке Пекином 24 истребителей Су-35, подписание контракта ожидается в 2014 г., сообщил заместитель генерального директора «Рособоронэкспорта» Виктор Комардин.
Rosoboronexport and the Chinese party continue negotiating over the purchase of 24 Su-35 fighter jets by Beijing. The contract is expected to be signed in 2014, deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin told RIA Novosti.
Читайте далее


If you noticed it says deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin told RIA Novosti. a head of Rosoboronexport.


the report is from deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin.

Now this is ROSTEC reporting.

Do you need other source?

The only thing you were trying to do is covering your tracks, since you can not prove official russian sources from the Russian military complex are not reporting it.


That to me was an example you did not know what was Rostec, and your search were quiet limited.


and i will prove you

NIZHNY NOVGOROD, October 19 (RIA Novosti) – Russian state-owned high tech corporation Rostec will invest $100 million in an aircraft building factory in the Ulyanovsk Region, the local administration said Friday.
source

The Night Hunter helicopter will be outfitted with new equipment
Specialists from Rostec holding companies are modernizing the Mi-28N military helicopter

Rosteс will present its developments at FIHAV- 2013
"Russian Helicopters" will presents its multipurpose light helicopter ANSAT at the Havana International Fair

Now what are you going to say? as some of the posters tha it is Russian lie?
That is the last thing you can say.


now see this, i am not saying that 100% the Chinese are going to buy it, just that Russia and China are for sure in negotiations, if the sale materializes well that is not sure yet at least for me but is very likely it will happen

Sorry again to intervene again ... but You are again wrong, since You are NOT polite !

How often were You asked a simple question, how often did anyone asked You for a simply reply to an argument and each time Your sentence begins with "It's Your opinion" and then You twist arguments, You avoid answers and even more You post pags of pages of unrelated information ... its nearly as monotonous as Cato's quote: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam." (= "Furthermore,I consider that Carthage must be destroyed" !!)

Even more annoying is that when someone then insists to give the requested answer You tell us that this is a forum, everyone can have his opinions - but You have the facts - and even more if anyone proofs You how wrong or unreliable Your sources sometimes are and that You should learn to stay on topic, otherwise ... then You tell us You were threatened to be banned and a moderator only mis-uses his power since he has only weak arguments or so on.

Regardless how "polite" Your sentences are, YOU are simply unpolite by ignoring the most simple rules to discuss (I#M not even sure if You indeed know what this is !) ...

Deino

MiG-29 said:

First let me tell you this, if you want i reply you, learn to treat me politely, you can disagree with me, i am not against to accept you hold your opinions, however do not slander me, which is basically what you are doing


«Рособоронэкспорт» и представители Китая продолжают переговоры по закупке Пекином 24 истребителей Су-35, подписание контракта ожидается в 2014 г., сообщил заместитель генерального директора «Рособоронэкспорта» Виктор Комардин.
Rosoboronexport and the Chinese party continue negotiating over the purchase of 24 Su-35 fighter jets by Beijing. The contract is expected to be signed in 2014, deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin told RIA Novosti.
Читайте далее


If you noticed it says deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin told RIA Novosti. a head of Rosoboronexport.


the report is from deputy head of Rosoboronexport Viktor Komardin.

Now

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this is ROSTEC reporting.

Do you need other source?

The only thing you were trying to do is covering your tracks, since you can not prove official russian sources from the Russian military complex are not reporting it.


That to me was an example you did not know what was Rostec, and your search were quiet limited.

and i will prove you

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Either you do not understand me, or you purposely move away from my question. I ask you specific question,

1) How to you tell which source is accurate? Which is not?

And from what I understand from your explanation, those that was given by Deputy Head is accurate, those not are not accurate?

2) You say in your previous post that there is a different between media and Rostec, so I take it that whatever Rostec said is accurate, which obviously is not because Rostec echoe what CCTV had mentioned before. And if they are that accurate, then they should not have mentioned it. And so... I deduce that Rostec is also not 100% accurate. Am I correct to say it?

3) You conveniently left out the link that I have linked before on Rostec echoing CCTV. And I said that it is not accurate because that had been debunked by the Russian themselves.

4) You claim that I am covering my track, so my next few questions are... what track? I linked from Rostec and Russian media themselves, I have mentioned before, my sources are not Chinese (not even CCTV), not westerns, not Singapore, but Russian. And I am not covering anything, just falling back to the first question (See below).

So... you tell me, what am I suppose to trust? Simple question. If you don't know, just say so. Nobody's going to point a gun at your head.

Yes, I do not know what was Rostec, thus my search into that matter is quite limited, but from that limited search, I notice discrepancy which make me think that that source is also not accurate (or a better word... too accurate).

As to your consistence claim that people have to be polite to you, let me tell you something, respect needed to be earn, like the respect many forumers here have (eg. Crobato, Bd poyeye, Jeff, Airforce brat, Engineer, and many more) and I talk to them with utmost respect and politeness. You on the other hand... well... since you never give anyone of us any respect to start with, why the hell should any of us give you the respect and manner that you demand and accuse others of not giving because they don't share your point of view?

NIZHNY NOVGOROD, October 19 (RIA Novosti) – Russian state-owned high tech corporation Rostec will invest $100 million in an aircraft building factory in the Ulyanovsk Region, the local administration said Friday.
sourceRussia’s Rostec Corp. to Invest $100M in New Aircraft Factory | Business | RIA Novosti

The Night Hunter helicopter will be outfitted with new equipment
Specialists from Rostec holding companies are modernizing the Mi-28N military helicopter

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Rosteс will present its developments at FIHAV- 2013
"Russian Helicopters" will presents its multipurpose light helicopter ANSAT at the Havana International Fair

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Now what are you going to say? as some of the posters tha it is Russian lie?
That is the last thing you can say.


now see this, i am not saying that 100% the Chinese are going to buy it, just that Russia and China are for sure in negotiations, if the sale materializes well that is not sure yet at least for me but is very likely it will happen

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And again with non-related links, taking that as proof of the accuracy of a source... what to say? Even tabloid get it right sometime don't you think? Secondly, what you said are either Russia's own internal affair and news that was international whereby every darn reporters got assess to... and that is suddenly proof of a source accuracy? If you want that as proof of accuracy... I can also show you accurate news from the notoriously non-accurate wforum.com or wikipedia and if by your theory... then wforum and wikipedia are accurate sources too. Then we should be reading from those rather than doing other researches.

Again... I am buffled, but I don't want to get pulled in to another meaningless argument on totally unrelated topics.

Plus you accuse me of slandering you. Did I? If yes, I apologise. But frankly I don't see how I have slander you? In read through my post, what I claim of you is pretty accurate. So seriously if you think I have done that... then basic manner in me, told me that I should apologise to you again, is that polite enough for someone who is always holding on to a high moral ground?

Deino said:

Sorry again to intervene again ... but You are again wrong, since You are NOT polite !

How often were You asked a simple question, how often did anyone asked You for a simply reply to an argument and each time Your sentence begins with "It's Your opinion" and then You twist arguments, You avoid answers and even more You post pags of pages of unrelated information ... its nearly as monotonous as Cato's quote: "Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam." (= "Furthermore,I consider that Carthage must be destroyed" !!)


Deino

Click to expand...

Tell me how i will answer this?

AeroEngineer AeroEngineer is offline
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Re: Chinese purchase of Su-35.
Mig-29 is just like other Russian fan boys. They try to prove that Chinese are inferior sub humans compare to the Russians.

This is why he's discussion is going no where !! or this

Simple, simple questions. If you have no idea of why, it is fine. But you are avoiding these questions and accusing me of playing white game and making white noise. And you called that polite? Polite to me? Politeness to someone, means to totally ignore that fella treating him like sub-human... I get it now.

i won`t fall in the trap and see
forum rule
6, This is a place for professional discussion. Please do NOT get personal. Do not try to tempt your fellow member to behave nastily. We see quite well through your attempts. Also its not allowed to post deliberately false material or generally inappropriate comments. This isn't social chat-room so members with only that in mind would be banned.

I usuallly answer, however people either want me to answer to provocations and the forum says

have you noticed have many asked for me to be banned but see forum rules
forum Rule
8, If a member is clearly just causing trouble, let moderators deal with him/her. Ignore all provocative posting, because it would only worsen the situation. All members. DO NOT publicy call for a member to be banned or warned!! This is the same as a personal insult. PM a mod or report the post.


Now i do really answer people however people many times do not listen.


So tell me shall i answer AeroEngineer and get nasty?
of course i won`t that is a tactic to claim wolf, to claim i am the bad guy.


If you read i do really answer but sometimes people wnat argue to argue so is better not to argue they are just provoking me, see this thread is about Su-35 and people discusses me. Come on that is also a proof that is more about provocation and personal attacks that a few days ago PUP had to jump in a stop aeroengineer from his personals attacks and the same was rhino that i had to ask Thuang to stop the harrasment.


Here the problem is people attack me because i hold a different view and many of my views are logical and have sense.