Chinese purchase of Su-35

MiG-29 said:

Deino


First let us not make this a racial thing, Russian sources are not a generalization, say this report.

first i ask you since you might not agree, this

is JF-17 a fighter where there was no Russian input?

Now this translation is from google but you have to understand what Russian sources say and we will use another report

The deal is facing opposition from Russian aircraft manufacturers, such as Mikhail Pogosyan, the head of the MiG and Sukhoi aviation holding, who said that the FC-1 is extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29. Pogosyan claimed that FC-1 is a direct competitor to Russia's MiG-29 and the deal would incur losses for the Russian manufacturers. A source quoted by the Kommersant newspaper said there are significant price differences keeping the US$10-million Chinese jets much cheaper than a $35-million Russian MiG-29. Also, representatives from Russian Defense Export said that there was nothing wrong with re-exporting, which is in accordance with the decision of the Russian government. They added that there is no law that says there should be any agreement with Russian manufacturers citing the example of RD-33 that was re-exported to Egypt and was given permission by the Federal Service for Military and Technical Cooperation in 2007. These engines are sold to ...

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Deino

check the video

[video=youtube;8Q1z8RHqsjg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q1z8RHqsjg[/video]

plus i do not know the extend of Russian help to China throught out SIbnia Chengdu is claimed to have been help
however Но мы далее, для избегания путаницы, будем вес же придерживаться традиционных для нас стандартов. Согласно недавно обнародованным воспоминаниям Лю By Чуэня, ветерана входящего в Чэндунскую авиастроительную корпорацию САС проектного института (Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. CADI, известен также как 611-й Институт), именно в 1989 г. коллективы 611-го и 601-го институтов (второй ныне является подразделением Шэньянской авиастроительной корпорации. SAC) приступили к работам по программе под кодовым названием «2-03». Лю By упоминает; что в июле 1993 с китайская сторона подписала соглашение о сотрудничестве с российским институтом ЦАГИ и АНПК «МиГ» - речь шла о передаче опыта разработки самолетов с использованием систем автоматизированного проектирования и различного расчетного и моделирующего программного обеспечения. Вскоре массированный десант из нескольких десятков российских специалистов прибыл в Китай. С китайской стороны в программе принимало участие 120 инженеров и ученых из многих профильных организаций. Этот интенсивный «обмен опытом» продолжался до февраля 1994 г:



But we're on, to avoid confusion , we will stick with the same weight of our traditional standards. According to a recently released memoirs By Lu Chuan , a veteran entering the Chengdu Aircraft Corporation CAC Design Institute (Chengdu Aircraft Design Institute. CADI, also known as the 611 th Institute ) , namely in 1989, teams of the 611 th and 601 institutions ( second now is a division of Shenyang Aircraft Corporation . SAC) began work on the program , code-named " 2-03 ." By Liu mentions , that in July 1993, with the Chinese side has signed a cooperation agreement with the Russian Institute of TsAGI and ANPK "MiG" - it was about the transfer of experience in the development of aircraft using computer-aided design and various design and modeling software . Soon a massive landing of several dozen Russian experts arrived in China . On the Chinese side took part in the program 120 engineers and scientists from many professional societies . This intensive " exchange of experience" lasted until February 1994

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I do not know if the FC-1　has some russian pedigree to the level Pogyiosan called it a "copy"

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Direct competitor is different from direct copy. It seems that some people confuse the two intentionally or not... I have not found any reference suggesting FC-1 is a copy of MIG 29.

Again, anyone who claims/claimed the Chinese CV as Shi Lang cannot be trusted. The CV has never ever ever been named "Shi Lang". The term Shi Lang only appeared on-line as a plain suggestion. Anyone who took it as official and actually began to use it openly simply lacks any ability to differentiate between internet rumor and facts. How can these people be trusted is simply beyond me... The fact that they still use "Shi Lang" long after the official name of the CV had been known suggests that these people are simply poorly informed.

Jeff Head said:

Yep, those sneaky, rascally Chinese and Pakistanis have pulled off a copy of an aircraft that is the most dissimilar copy in histroy.

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Who says it's dissimilar? Both have two wings and a cockpit. It's gotta be a copy!

vesicles said:

Who says it's dissimilar? Both have two wings and a cockpit. It's gotta be a copy!

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It's actually a copy of a US B-2 and and F-35 combined into one.

It seems every stealth fighter concept coming from Western allies is a rip-off of a US stealth design or a stealthy version of a F-15 or F-18. And we know if they ever became a reality, a lot of the components will come from the West. I think it was one of the moderators over at Key Aviation who said the JF-17/FC-1 was just a redesigned Mig-21. It's sort of like in politics where they say if every side has a problem with you, you must be doing something right. So if everyone seems to have a different aircraft to say where "it" comes from, it must be more original than critics believe.

AssassinsMace said:

I think it was one of the moderators over at Key Aviation who said the JF-17/FC-1 was just a redesigned Mig-21. It's sort of like in politics where they say if every side has a problem with you, you must be doing something right. So if everyone seems to have a different aircraft to say where "it" comes from, it must be more original than critics believe.

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As regards the F1-C, how about the Chinese and Pakistanis came up with some requirements, and then designed an aircraft to meet those requirements?

I don't think they really "stole," a thing for this aricraft, IMHO, they designed an aircraft based on the principles of aerodynamics, flutter, structural design and dynamics, stress analysis, material sciences, and avionics available to them and came up with their own design.

Of course it has characteristics of some other planes...they all have to operate under similar constraints and laws of physics, short of very exotc technologues that would make any aircraft (like the B-2 of F-22) worth its weight (and more) in gold.

The FC-1 was not meant to do that. I believe they simply created an aircraft to meet their needs without all the drama (in this case) of having to steal and rob technologies or ideas from someone else per sey...and in the process created a decent, reatively low-cost modern jet fighter.

Russian press reporting is actually usually quite good and reliable, but the essayist Samsonov used as a source in the quotation is singularly ill informed. He does not even know that the Russian Siberian and Far Eastern Military Districts merged to form the Eastern MD in 2011! His figures for the Chinese ground forces in Shenyang and Beijing MR’s are quite wrong, too. There are:

Armoured Division 0 + 1
Armoured Brigades 3 + 2
Mechanised Infantry Divisions 1 + 3
Motorised Infantry Divisions 3 + 1
Mechanised Infantry Brigades 6 + 3
Motorised Infantry Brigades 2 + 4

Total of 9 divisions and 20 brigades.

Lanzhou MR never had two armoured divisions, and now it has none. The MR has 2 armoured brigades, 1 mechanised and 4 motorised infantry divisions, 2 mechanised and 2 motorised infantry brigades.

Deino said:

Again again ... once again the same tactic: Instead of simply accepting Your source is wrong, that it made a mistake or is not completly correct You assumed, You post pages, links and videos completely irrelevat to the discussed thing again in order to led awai from the. Anyway to tell the Liaoning "Shi Lang" is as wrong as well as calling the FC-1 a MiG-29 clone or even "extremely close, if not the same, as the Russian-made MiG-29" ... this is simply wrong, simply stupid; FACT!



By the way I know - and I admire him very much - but Paralay is also not allknowing or ever correct; nor is he "official" and as such in Your eyes better than any other Chinese source.

Deino

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Look cool down, if we are going to discuss thing i want to do it in a civilized way.
I want neither acussitions from you niether from me

Pogyosan calls FC-1 a copy, basicly refering it as a competitor in the same niche, SiBNia and TSaGi as well as MiG did indeed help Chengdu.

I want to ask you do you know all the MiG-29 derivatives? There is one of a single engine a ventral intake single engine never build project

Click in the link


source of picture

Now look, the article, is an essay from a writer, my point was to see ask you 3 things

First is the J-11 a russian copy of the Su-27 as the Su-33 has a chinese copy named J-15.
Fact yes, they are copies or derivatives since they have different technologies from the original ones


Second did the russian ask China about J-11B about the license?
Fact yes they did, even for a while the page of Roboronexport had the news

and third and more important did a Chinese general visit the booth of Sukhoi and shown Su-35? answer yes

First the interest of the Chinese military to the Su-35 became known in 2008 during the Air Show Airshow China. Then the Chinese Air Force Commander Colonel General Xu Qiliang visited the booth of "Sukhoi" and learned about the possibilities of a new multi-purpose fighter and praised its flight and performance characteristics


Now you are trying to debunk the article claiming he made a mistake about Lioling, but tell me that is just a name the Russian writer says that was ours, he says "our aircraft carrier” is he wrong? No he is not it was a soviet carrier and basicly Russian since the only remaining one is Russian.
why he was wron? probably when he wrote the article the name was not known.



The question here is the Chinese Air Force Commander Colonel General Xu Qiliang visited the booth of "Sukhoi" ?

Did he show some interested that was later echoed by ROSTEC and Roboronexport.


Addendum


Deino, my links are related, since the J-20 thread you claim my links are not related (there i can accept you are right since i know you are only interested in the pictures) because i know you do not want "clutter" or while i like aerodynamics , here is different even Pogyosan knows something and i bet he knows more since he is very well acquainted with the Russian aerospace to the degree he knows more than us up to what degree Russia played an influence in the FC-1 program.

but that is another issue

But as a further link see what paralay writes

Chinese fighter FC-1 , originally known as Super-7 is designed CAC Corporation for export.
The machine is created in cooperation with Pakistan. The beginning of deliveries expected in 2006, the Pakistan Air Force FC-1 will be called: "One fighter - 17 ( JF-17) "Thunder".
It is still unknown whether these planes taken at the Air Force of China.
Modernization of the J-7 (Chinese version of MiG-21) was conceived back in 1986. While China has signed an agreement to work and deliveries of equipment with the firm Grumman. But in the early nineties, political relations, China - the West have cooled dramatically, and "high places" had to seek other partners.
In 1999, Beijing and Islamabad concluded a contract for the design and production of fighter aircraft FC-1 . On the Russian side in the project participated Corporation "MiG".
Rolled out the first flight of the sample was held May 31, 2003, and Aug. 24 aircraft made its maiden of fifteen minute flight.




click here to see bette picture

vesicles said:

Again, anyone who claims/claimed the Chinese CV as Shi Lang cannot be trusted. The CV has never ever ever been named "Shi Lang". The term Shi Lang only appeared on-line as a plain suggestion. Anyone who took it as official and actually began to use it openly simply lacks any ability to differentiate between internet rumor and facts. How can these people be trusted is simply beyond me... The fact that they still use "Shi Lang" long after the official name of the CV had been known suggests that these people are simply poorly informed.

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No the article is not new, the article is saying what name they thought it had, it is a time-space constraint of the authour

Guys can we knock off the FC1 copying Mig 29 or other Russian planes and the name of chinese carrier (now or in the future) to other threads... we do have a thread for FC1 and a thread for Chinese carriers or world carriers. This thread here is only regards to sales or intended sales of Su-35 to the Chinese.

(PS. I have not read the link, so I am not sure if it was in Russian or English. If it is in Russian and unless we are well verse in Russian, the person who write that article might meant completely different thing and google translation might be way out. In my opinion, when he say FC1 is the same as Mig-29, he might not mean that FC1 is a clone of Mig-29, he might simply mean that FC-1 is of the same class as Mig-29 and had similar mission suits, so it can damage Mig-29's sales to other nation. Something similar to a Honda Accord and a Toyota Camry. They are luxury salons, they appeal to same customers.)

Anyway, as to impeding sales of Su-35 to China... we will get to know it by next year if the sales goes through. So I really see no point hammering the zombie horse anymore, in the risk of turning this place into a heated flame war.

MiG-29 said:

Look cool down, if we are going to discuss thing i want to do it in a civilized way.
I want neither acussitions from you niether from me

Pogyosan calls FC-1 a copy, basicly refering it as a competitor in the same niche, SiBNia and TSaGi as well as MiG did indeed help Chengdu.

I want to ask you do you know all the MiG-29 derivatives? There is one of a single engine a ventral intake single engine never build project

Click in the link

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Click to expand...

Sorry, Mig-29, you should back completely away from the Mig-29 - FC-1 statements. The FC-1 is not a copy or clone of the Mig-29. The Mig-29 is what it is. It's been out for 20 years now. No need to go back to some research/feasibility derivitive that the Soveit Union proposed when contemplating it way back then.

The Mig-29 is what it is. Two engined, two vertical stabilzers, intakes under the fuselage, etc., etc.

The FC-1 is none of those things. The FC-1 was not derived from the Mig-29. It is a different aircraft altogether.

You can come up with all kinds of excuses and reasons that someone could possibly make the claim, but all of us have eyes, and all of us have been around for enough years to understand the history. To continue to hold to such a statement will do nothing for your other arguements regarding the SU-35, which really are not related to this.

As it is, I believe the SU-35 s a good aircraft, but it is not an aircraft the PLAAF or PLAN needs. They have passed, IMHO, beyond that need.

Like I said, earlier, it would be best if the mods suspended this thread until such a time as there was more official news (ie. a contract sigbned). Otherwise it will continue to be just endless specualtion over the same points, and the potential for arguemnt and hard feelings.