Chinese purchase of Su-35

AeroEngineer · Sep 7, 2013

Engineer said:
If you read the article, you will realize that it is merely about one official at rosoboronoexport expressing his opinions at what he hopes to happen. It is not an official statement of a sale by rosoboronoexport.

Every year, Russian sources claim a Su-35 deal with China will be signed soon. In 2012, the Russians claimed the jets will be delivered in 2013. Then in 2013, the Russians claimed the jets will be delivered in 2014. There have even been occasions where Russian sources claimed outright that a deal has been sealed, only to went back to claiming the deal will be signed "soon" a few months later.

I see no reason to consider the deal to be serious other than a bad marketing ploy.

The longer it wait, the less likely China will buy Su-35.

As I have said before, Su-35 is completely USELESS for China. If China wants Su-35 badly !! They would have bought Su-35last year already and at 48 of them !!

Now the Russians are saying that it will be signed in 2014!! LMFAO !! They first said that it will be signed in late 2012, then early 2013, then mid 2013 during Xi JingPing's visit !! Then late 2013, and now 2014. LOL

Air Force Brat · Sep 7, 2013

Deino said:
O.k. difficult situations seem to require difficult solutions.
Again ... I simply beg You (and You really don't need to follow my opinion if You don't like it) to argue, since that the way to do it right in this forum !

What the hell does the number of F-16 build or even F-18 has to do with Your false statements, what does the Russian production output of engines has to do with the facts we want to discuss and You constantely ignore ??

To keep Your opinion is fine, but why on earth can't You ever simply answer a simply question You were asked, why can't You argue when You get an argument ? ... You again and again only seem to be able to post "sources" and pages of irrelevant blabalabla and then tell me to either accept or not-accept them even if they did not touch any of the questions with any word.

As such I make it simple:

1. You said (#738) "16 J-11Bs and a max of 120-200 J-10s which suggest low production of WS-10s":

a) Why on earth do You now take only 16 J-11B for granted and why do You think the J-10 is powered by the WS-10 ?
b) Why does these numbers are a sign of a low production of WS-10, even more when the J-10 is powered by the AL-31FN ??
c) Why do You ignore Huitong's list (#744) where several more J-11B/BS/BH were identified ?
d) Or do You assume there are in fact only 16 J-11B which were repeatedly repainted or renumbered just to fool us ?

Please explain !

2. You accused us (#740) "if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs niether Rebecca Grant"

a) Please state, who stated in what post that the PLAAF operated 2000 J-11B ?
b) if not said by anyone here, then please explain, why a refusal to accept Your 16-20 J-11B directly leads to the assumption that there 2000 operational.
... as far as I followed no-one mentioned this number but You.

3. You seem to take RAND or Ms. Grant as a highly reliable source.

a) Please explain us WHY do You trust them more than others, even if their numbers and assumptions (# 753) are so much lower than others, even if these numbers were debunked already by others or several additional sources ?
b) Why should they have more reliable information without access to classified information than others ??
c) And even more why sould other sources or books (some You seem not to like) should be wrong, when even Mr. Polmar - who surely has access to callsified information - reviewd them to "... provide as much imformation as most classified materials on air orders of battle" can provide. (at least I take this as a nice compliment that my assumptions are not that far off from the real PLAAF ORBAT even if I don't have SAC's production list nor the official PLAAF texts).

Don't get me wrong, but since it is a right to have a differenzt opinion, to be a member of this forum is a privilege. As such since I'm a teacher I now have that very strong feeling like in a lesson on how to argue and discuss: My pupils do not need to have my opinion (that's for sure) but they have to argue and to discuss !

As such I think these few questions should be a good start and even more I beg You to do this homework ... To tell me again that the world has more than one opinion and that this is fine and as such I should relax won't be accepted as "homework done" and I'm not sure I would try to find out what will happen then.

Deino

There you go mig, the number of J-11Bs is a finite number, how many have actually been built, not how many opinions have been postulated by the uninformed, or dare I say ignorant, and we owe it to one another to put forth our most credible work, because a forum is a gathering of informed intellect, in order to postulate a solution to a problem or question, that's why what bd says, or dieno says or Jeff says or Engineer says, or master delft says, carry weight, because we know they are giving their "best" information, most considered opinion, you would do very well to follow suit, and we will then arrive at an equitable and honest solution. brat

MiG-29 · Sep 7, 2013

Deino said:
O.k. difficult situations seem to require difficult solutions.
Again ... I simply beg You (and You really don't need to follow my opinion if You don't like it) to argue, since that the way to do it right in this forum !

Deino

Why you want me to put the ball in my side, why do not you show me each and every picture of each and every J-11B made.

People claim there are hundreds based upon a deductive reasoning.

Physical evidence is not so rich, but the imagination of people is.

Show me an official statement saying AVIC has build 80-100 J-11B.

I mean official, lockcheed martin has done that about F-16.

Please the debunked is only a phrase, the evidence is not that rich.

That is the reason in 2013 some sources keep more modest estimates

Huitong's list has even broken links and by 2013 the numbers by the other sources is close to 40 like FAS, however Huitong's list does not even show 40 J-11Bs since some links are broken and no picture is shown

(by the way i say 2000 J-11B ironically, to say people can let their imagination free as people do here, if they want 20, 200 or 2000 is up to the persons opinion)

And J-10 is related, Al-31 has two variants and powers both J-10 and J-11/Su-27, if China can not build WS-10s for J-10s shows troubles in paradise

MiG-29 · Sep 7, 2013

Air Force Brat said:
There you go mig, the number of J-11Bs is a finite number, how many have actually been built, not how many opinions have been postulated by the uninformed, or dare I say ignorant, and we owe it to one another to put forth our most credible work, because a forum is a gathering of informed intellect, in order to postulate a solution to a problem or question, that's why what bd says, or dieno says or Jeff says or Engineer says, or master delft says, carry weight, because we know they are giving their "best" information, most considered opinion, you would do very well to follow suit, and we will then arrive at an equitable and honest solution. brat

With all due respect, Grant or the RAND get the same and more information we do.

Let us be a little bit humble, admit there is a world out there, with people doing the same things people do here and sometimes more resources such AWACS or Satellite recce info.

Deino can have his opinion, so grant or the rand corp, forums are to discuss civilized of course but if Deino does not agree okay i do not need to continue talking, but you do need to be excesivibly polite, critics are good.

MiG-29 · Sep 7, 2013

siegecrossbow said:
Rosoboronexport isn't as reliable as you'd like to think. I think they also claimed in June that the deal will be signed in October this year. Tha never materialized. Like I said before. Until I see the Su-35s in PLAAF colors, such news must be taken with a grain of salt.

Rosoboronexport is a reliable source, however you have to read what the officials says. If he does not give a date, something might not be firm yet, but talks are held now for sure

Deino · Sep 7, 2013

MiG-29 said:
Why you want me to put the ball in my side, why do not you show me each and every picture of each and every J-11B made.

People claim there are hundreds based upon a deductive reasoning.

Physical evidence is not so rich, but the imagination of people is.

Show me an official statement saying AVIC has build 80-100 J-11B.

I mean official, lockcheed martin has done that about F-16.

Please the debunked is only a phrase, the evidence is not that rich.

That is the reason in 2013 some sources keep more modest estimates

Huitong's list has even broken links and by 2013 the numbers by the other sources is close to 40, however Huitong's list does not even show 40 J-11Bs since some links are broken

Dear MiG-29 !

Honestly I respect Your opinion, which is more than often not mine. You are a welcome contributor but in this case it is not on our side to show You an official production list from SAC or a photo of each and every single J-11B in service. I even cannot proof that there is indeed not a secret unit, which has nothing more to do than to renumber the 16 J-11B You accept to fool us; this is simply impossible and You know that quite well. However the time it is up to You to answer the simply questions I asked You !

If not I will take this simply as a statement "I can not discuss, I do not want to argue and all other's are simply too stubborn or stupid if they don't accept my opinion based on the sources I like" ... as such take this as my last warning to simply do Your homework !

I will give You all the time You need to do nothing more than to answer these questions or I will provide You with enough time to look for another forum, where You can carry on with Your crusade. All other posts by You other than the requested answers will be deleted immediately.
Please do not take us for a fool any longer !

Have a nice evening and do Your homework.

Deino

MiG-29 · Sep 7, 2013

Deino said:
Deino

a) Why on earth do You now take only 16 J-11B for granted and why do You think the J-10 is powered by the WS-10 ?
Answer Pictorial evidence since grant uses both RAND and other sources to give an estimate

b) Why does these numbers are a sign of a low production of WS-10, even more when the J-10 is powered by the AL-31FN ??

Al-31 powers both J-11 and J-10 unability to power J-10s and retro-fit it to old aircraft show design problems on WS-10
c) Why do You ignore Huitong's list (#744) where several more J-11B/BS/BH were identified ?
i did not ignore but it has broken links no picture shown
d) Or do You assume there are in fact only 16 J-11B which were repeatedly repainted or renumbered just to fool us ?

Please explain !

2. You accused us (#740) "if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs neither Rebecca Grant"
The numbers here are not supported by pictures or official statements and are just deductions which are fine but are also estimates and i have freedom to believe what i want as people can clam any number for J-11B as they do here so i was ironic

a) Please state, who stated in what post that the PLAAF operated 2000 J-11B ?
b) if not said by anyone here, then please explain, why a refusal to accept Your 16-20 J-11B directly leads to the assumption that there 2000 operational.
... as far as I followed no-one mentioned this number but You.

3. You seem to take RAND or Ms. Grant as a highly reliable source.

a) Please explain us WHY do You trust them more than others, even if their numbers and assumptions (# 753) are so much lower than others, even if these numbers were debunked already by others or several additional sources ?
b) Why should they have more reliable information without access to classified information than others ??

answer simple because you want to force your opinion without official statements by AVIC and each and every picture of each J11B and i trust a more modest number since i know J-10 is made with Al-31s proving China can not make an equivalent of Al-31

c) And even more why sould other sources or books (some You seem not to like) should be wrong, when even Mr. Polmar - who surely has access to classified information - reviewed them to "... provide as much information as most classified materials on air orders of battle" can provide. (at least I take this as a nice compliment that my assumptions are not that far off from the real PLAAF ORBAT even if I don't have SAC's production list nor the official PLAAF texts).

Because grant also works for the US goverment and must have information classified plus i have read japanese reports and none says there are as many regiments as you claim and you dissmiss Grant`s authority because contradicts you

Engineer · Sep 7, 2013

MiG-29 said:
Why you want me to put the ball in my side, why do not you show me each and every picture of each and every J-11B made.

People claim there are hundreds based upon a deductive reasoning.

Physical evidence is not so rich, but the imagination of people is.

So, you cannot provide evidence showing that there are only 18 J-11B ever produced. This means your statement is nothing but another claim based on imagination rather than physical evidence.

MiG-29 said:
Show me an official statement saying AVIC has build 80-100 J-11B.

I mean official, lockcheed martin has done that about F-16.

No. You show us an official statement from SAC saying the company has only produced 18 J-11B. You cannot, simple as that.

MiG-29 said:
Please the debunked is only a phrase, the evidence is not that rich.

That is the reason in 2013 some sources keep more modest estimates

Huitong's list has even broken links and by 2013 the numbers by the other sources is close to 40 like FAS, however Huitong's list does not even show 40 J-11Bs since some links are broken and no picture is shown

(by the way i say 2000 J-11B ironically, to say people can let their imagination free as people do here, if they want 20, 200 or 2000 is up to the persons opinion)

If there are 20 J-11B, then that's more than 18, thus your source is debunked. If there are 40 J-11B, that's more than 18 aircraft thus debunking your source. If there are 100 J-11B, that's too is more than 18, which debunks your source.

As you see, it does not matter how many J-11B is exactly out there and there is no need for us to provide you with such number. To debunk your number, we only need to show there are more than 18 aircraft. That have been done. Furthermore, Huitong's list shows more than 18 J-11Bs and even contains photographs of them like you have asked for. Your number is debunked.

MiG-29 said:
And J-10 is related, Al-31 has two variants and powers both J-10 and J-11/Su-27, if China can not build WS-10s for J-10s shows troubles in paradise

Whether J-10 makes use of WS-10 right now has no relation to the production number of J-11B. China produces some 100 WS-10 a year. That many engines must go somewhere, and that somewhere is J-11B.

What you have been doing on this forum is preaching a religion. Yes, a religion. That's because all that you have claimed about Chinese fighters are based on your belief rather than actual evidence. It is no different this time. You only wish there are 18 J-11B because J-11B uses the WS-10 engines, and the fact that China is capable of relying itself on jet engines somehow hurts your fragile ego.

kyanges · Sep 7, 2013

Engineer said:
If there are 20 J-11B, then that's more than 18, thus your source is debunked. If there are 40 J-11B, that's more than 18 aircraft thus debunking your source. If there are 100 J-11B, that's too is more than 18, which debunks your source.

As you see, it does not matter how many J-11B is exactly out there and there is no need for us to provide you with such number. To debunk your number, we only need to show there are more than 18 aircraft. That have been done. Furthermore, Huitong's list shows more than 18 J-11Bs and even contains photographs of them like you have asked for. Your number is debunked.

This is pretty important point here. I hope it doesn't get selectively "lost" in a sea of rebuttals.

Engineer · Sep 7, 2013

MiG-29 said:
a) Why on earth do You now take only 16 J-11B for granted and why do You think the J-10 is powered by the WS-10 ?
Answer Pictorial evidence since grant uses both RAND and other sources to give an estimate

Pictorial evidences show there were three regiments of J-11B back in 2011. That is how we know there were three regiments back then. No evidences at all was provided by Air Force Magazine in relation to the numbers from Grant and RAND.

MiG-29 said:
b) Why does these numbers are a sign of a low production of WS-10, even more when the J-10 is powered by the AL-31FN ??

Al-31 powers both J-11 and J-10 unability to power J-10s and retro-fit it to old aircraft show design problems on WS-10

Firstly, all but one division of J-11B use AL-31, so AL-31 is irrelevant to the discussion. Secondly, J-11B has nothing to do with J-10. Thirdly, J-10A was designed to use AL-31FN so of course WS-10 isn't going to be used.

MiG-29 said:
c) Why do You ignore Huitong's list (#744) where several more J-11B/BS/BH were identified ?
i did not ignore but it has broken links no picture shown

You are outright deceiving Denio.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

show up perfectly.

MiG-29 said:
2. You accused us (#740) "if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs neither Rebecca Grant"
The numbers here are not supported by pictures or official statements and are just deductions which are fine but are also estimates and i have freedom to believe what i want as people can clam any number for J-11B as they do here so i was ironic

You have freedom to believe what you want. You have the freedom to believe the Earth to be flat for all I care, but that freedom does not make your belief correct. Your claim of 18 J-11B is not supported by pictures or official statements. In fact, you were shown sources that debunk your number.

MiG-29 said:
a) Please state, who stated in what post that the PLAAF operated 2000 J-11B ?
b) if not said by anyone here, then please explain, why a refusal to accept Your 16-20 J-11B directly leads to the assumption that there 2000 operational.
... as far as I followed no-one mentioned this number but You.

3. You seem to take RAND or Ms. Grant as a highly reliable source.

a) Please explain us WHY do You trust them more than others, even if their numbers and assumptions (# 753) are so much lower than others, even if these numbers were debunked already by others or several additional sources ?
b) Why should they have more reliable information without access to classified information than others ??

answer simple because you want to force your opinion without official statements by AVIC and each and every picture of each J11B and i trust a more modest number since i know J-10 is made with Al-31s proving China can not make an equivalent of Al-31

Whether J-10 flies with AL-31FN has nothing to do with J-11B. Dragging J-10 into a discussion about J-11B is nothing other than an attempt to force your opinions on this board when evidences have already shown your opinions to be wrong.

MiG-29 said:
c) And even more why sould other sources or books (some You seem not to like) should be wrong, when even Mr. Polmar - who surely has access to classified information - reviewed them to "... provide as much information as most classified materials on air orders of battle" can provide. (at least I take this as a nice compliment that my assumptions are not that far off from the real PLAAF ORBAT even if I don't have SAC's production list nor the official PLAAF texts).

Because grant also works for the US goverment and must have information classified plus i have read japanese reports and none says there are as many regiments as you claim and you dissmiss Grant`s authority because contradicts you

Authority has nothing to do with validity of information. There is no reason to consider Grant's number as valid when we know the existence of three J-11B regiments back in 2011. What's more, Huitong's list also contains pictures of more than 18 individual J-11B, which again debunks Grant's number. So, rather than us, it is you who are dismissing information when they contradict you.

For your information,

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

indicates there are currently five regiments of J-11B that include 1st, 41st, 89th, 95th, and 111th divisions. With 24 planes each that's roughly 120 J-11B already. Feel free to verify that number by booking airline tickets to those locations and see for yourself.

Chinese purchase of Su-35

AeroEngineer

Junior Member

Air Force Brat

Brigadier

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Deino

Lieutenant General

MiG-29

Banned Idiot

Engineer

Major

kyanges

Junior Member

Engineer

Major