Chinese purchase of Su-35

Skywatcher said:

Nobody said there were 2000 J-11Bs, you chucklehead!

But I'm sure that demolishing strawmen is irrefutable proof of your intellectual correctness.

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you can believe the numbers you want and claim and support the numbers you wish, however

The AMR Regional Air Force Directory 2012," and David A. Shlapak, RAND, "Equipping the PLAAF," in The Chinese Air Force by Hallion, Cliff, and Saunders and Airforcemag.com via Rebecca Grant president of IRIS Independent Research do not accept numbers beyond 20 niether globalsecurity.org give those numbers


the rest believe what fits better your desire

MiG-29 said:

...
16 J-11Bs and a max of 120- 200 J-10s which suggest low production of WS-10s

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Please just do Your homework ... how on earth do You think there are only 16 J-11B and even more since when is the J-10 powered by the WS-10 ???

Such post really make me angry when You on the one side have an altitude of all-knowing (by only accepting the sources You like) and turning down everything else (simply since it does not fit Your opinion) and even more by argueing with false facts !

Even more ... where do Yoiu have the number 2000 J-11B from ???? No-one here uses this number.

MiG-29 said:

you can believe the numbers you want and claim and support the numbers you wish, however

The AMR Regional Air Force Directory 2012," and David A. Shlapak, RAND, "Equipping the PLAAF," in The Chinese Air Force by Hallion, Cliff, and Saunders and Airforcemag.com via Rebecca Grant president of IRIS Independent Research do not accept numbers beyond 20 niether globalsecurity.org give those numbers

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the rest believe what fits better your desire

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Sorry again, but You are again the one who claim and support the numbers you wish !

To think that there are only 20 J-11B are in operational service is plain stupid, even more when quoting Global.Security - and even if You surely will call immedeately another moderator or claim I mis-use my position, I beg You to think at first.

We have proof for the number of regiments, we have already way more images of different serials - Yes, they are surely all psed by a special PLAAF-unit with the only job to fool us here ! -, we have images and reports from fully equipped regiments ... so don't make Yourself a fool again with such stupid claims.

As such with such sentences "the rest believe what fits better your desire" You give only proof of Your own ignorance.

Deino

has visually Id'ed the following :

...Currently more J-11Bs are entering the service with PLAAF (S/N 31x0x, 40x1x, 40x3x, 60x5x, 70x0x, 72x2x), powered by WS-10A engines. In spring 2010 PLAN started to receive land-based J-11Bs (as J-11BH?), wearing a light gray camouflage (S/N 81x8x, 81x9x).
...

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Here are some of the serials Id'ed -

Deino said:

Please just do Your homework ... how on earth do You think there are only 16 J-11B and even more since when is the J-10 powered by the WS-10 ???

Such post really make me angry when You on the one side have an altitude of all-knowing (by only accepting the sources You like) and turning down everything else (simply since it does not fit Your opinion) and even more by argueing with false facts !

Even more ... where do Yoiu have the number 2000 J-11B from ???? No-one here uses this number.





Sorry again, but You are again the one who claim and support the numbers you wish !

To think that there are only 20 J-11B are in operational service is plain stupid, even more when quoting Global.Security - and even if You surely will call immedeately another moderator or claim I mis-use my position, I beg You to think at first.

We have proof for the number of regiments, we have already way more images of different serials - Yes, they are surely all psed by a special PLAAF-unit with the only job to fool us here ! -, we have images and reports from fully equipped regiments ... so don't make Yourself a fool again with such stupid claims.

As such with such sentences "the rest believe what fits better your desire" You give only proof of Your own ignorance.

Deino

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The numbers you want to believe is up to you, Grant and the RAND corporation give other numbers, if you do not accept them okay, that is your freedom, mine is believe them.

If you do not like those numbers that is not my problem Grant basically worked for RAND and the offices of the Secretary of the Air Force and Chief of Staff of the Air Force. In 1995, she founded IRIS Independent Research, performing work on strategic planning for aerospace and government clients and . Her latest publication from the Washington Security Forum is The Case for a New Stealth Bomber published in February 2012
see her bio



does she has some credentials to believe her?

Yes she does, if you do not think so, that is alright with me, but is very probable she has more than pictures to base her opinion

Hyperwarp said:

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has visually Id'ed the following :



Here are some of the serials Id'ed -

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even Checking the pictures you can see the numbers go with what globalsecurity.org says since there are not 100 pictures and a detail the page does not work well some links are broken

This is Rebecca Grant's article for Air Force Magazine January 2013 :

She actually cites 2 source for the PLAAF inventory - RAND & AMR, which vary heavily. J-10 (RAND - 120, AMR - 200) & J-11B (RAND - 18, AMR - ??) and for the images she is cites "ChineseMilitaryReview.blogspot.com".

MiG-29 said:

You can believe whatever it fits your desire, the data of the article i am quoting is based upon Sources: Asian Military Review, "The AMR Regional Air Force Directory 2012," and David A. Shlapak, RAND, "Equipping the PLAAF," in The Chinese Air Force by Hallion, Cliff, and Saunders
About Us
Airforcemag.com features the digital version of AIR FORCE Magazine and original online features, including the Daily Report, a digital news page published weekdays that focuses on information about the US Air Force, airpower, and national defense; In More Depth, short features about airpower and national defense issues and USAF activities; Data Points, charts on airpower and defense issues.

The Web site also features The Document File, a compilation of historical and current airpower and national defense reports and studies; Testimony, Congressional statements by USAF officials; and access to AIR FORCE Magazine’s vast archive of material.

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It does not matter how they advertise themselves. Considering there are more than 1 regiment of J-11B, and each regiment has 24 planes, they have obviously got their facts wrong.

MiG-29 said:

if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs niether Rebecca Grant
Rebecca Grant is president of IRIS Independent Research. Her most recent article
for Air Force Magazine was “Ascendent Eagle” in the July issue

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See above. I believe in facts, not in fairy tales.

Skywatcher said:

Nobody said there were 2000 J-11Bs, you chucklehead!

But I'm sure that demolishing strawmen is irrefutable proof of your intellectual correctness.

Click to expand...

Boo! Ad hominens are so classless and infantile.

MiG-29 said:

The numbers you want to believe is up to you, Grant and the RAND corporation give other numbers, if you do not accept them okay, that is your freedom, mine is believe them.

If you do not like those numbers that is not my problem Grant basically worked for RAND and the offices of the Secretary of the Air Force and Chief of Staff of the Air Force. In 1995, she founded IRIS Independent Research, performing work on strategic planning for aerospace and government clients and . Her latest publication from the Washington Security Forum is The Case for a New Stealth Bomber published in February 2012
see her bio

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

does she has some credentials to believe her?

Yes she does, if you do not think so, that is alright with me, but is very probable she has more than pictures to base her opinion

Click to expand...

You really don't get it !
Simply since they quote a source which gets its facts wrong - and we know that even these "sources" quite often, including Janes are not THE source on Chinese things ! - does not make them right.
If You like You can post "sources" about little green men on Mars but hey ...

You are right, feel free to take them seriously but then don't make a mess if no-one here takes You seroisly any longer.

Why they think only a handfull of J-11B are operational, why You argue the J-10 is powered by the WS-10 (and still don't accept that this is wrong !) is beyond my imagination ... but it does not make it correct.

By the way - just to promote myself a bit - You maybe want to read this review regarding a source .... and I hope You know who Norman Polmar is !

Again: You are right, feel free to take them seriously but then don't make a mess if no-one here takes You seroisly any longer.

Deino

Deino said:

You really don't get it !
.

You are right, feel free to take them seriously but then don't make a mess if no-one here takes You seroisly any longer.

Why they think only a handfull of J-11B are operational, why You argue the J-10 is powered by the WS-10 (and still don't accept that this is wrong !) is beyond my imagination ... but it does not make it correct.



Again: You are right, feel free to take them seriously but then don't make a mess if no-one here takes You seroisly any longer.

Deino

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I get very well your point, here people are free to believe there are 3 or 4 regiments 100 or 2000 J-11Bs or what ever the number, you are free too.


Take me seriously? here, first i am not Rebbeca Grant, niether the RAND corporation, so do not say i am the author, this is not about me but about different sources.

There are different opinions out there, yes my friend there are, that is a fact, the world has different opinions, Grant has the same authority as Norman polar, and the Airforcemag.com is another good site.

However you do not want to admit there are other opinions that have the same veracity level.

Why i do believe her? simple, J-31 uses RD-93, J-10 uses Al-31s.

How this affects the numbers? simple the USA built more than 1000 F-16 a decade, ask you why?
answer they build their engines.

How many Su-27s Russia build from 1983 to 1991?

700 why? they build the engine.


How many F-4s the USA built in 2 decades? 5000, how many J-8 China built?


China`s problems are the engines plus the USAAF, Russians or even Japanese more or less know how many J-10s and J-11s are, they have satellites taking pictures and AWACS scanning the skies, and none of these sources is claiming 200 or 100 J-11Bs the Asian Military Review, "The AMR Regional Air Force Directory 2012," gives also different numbers.

Here what you have to see is not that i care what people think about me, no i do not care, because is not about me, it is about there is not a single opinion about numbers of J-11Bs and is likely the numbers are small since China still import engines

That is the whole issue we are discussing, since Su-35 has a ban for China to clone its 117 and even Al-31s.