Chinese purchase of Su-35

Hyperwarp

Captain
WS-15 targets 180kN with afterburner , Pratt & Whitney F119 is below 160kN ....

More thrust does not mean its superior. What are the dimensions of the WS-15? How heavy is it? It could be a massive gas-guzzler with bare minimum MTBO.

155kn thrust figure is the official value for the F119. I've heard rumors of 37,000 lbs (~170kn) & 39,000 lbs (~180kn). F119 is a proven engine. Don't forget the YF119 was less complicated and slower than the YF120. This was back in 1990. If the US wanted to they could develop newer engines with F135/F136 like thrust for a new F-22 block. But, it is very unlikely the F-22 will see any major revisions.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
More thrust does not mean its superior. What are the dimensions of the WS-15? How heavy is it? It could be a massive gas-guzzler with bare minimum MTBO.

Well , I somehow doubt that PLAAF would accept gas-guzzler with 3 hours between overhauls :D As for dimensions , it would have to fit in J-20 .

155kn thrust figure is the official value for the F119. I've heard rumors of 37,000 lbs (~170kn) & 39,000 lbs (~180kn). F119 is a proven engine. Don't forget the YF119 was less complicated and slower than the YF120. This was back in 1990. If the US wanted to they could develop newer engines with F135/F136 like thrust for a new F-22 block. But, it is very unlikely the F-22 will see any major revisions.

I too doubt there will be some major upgrade program for F-22 in near future , but who knows . I think that primary objective of Chinese is to build plane with better characteristics then F-35 (which will be more numerous ) . J-20 could achieve that even with 117S .
 

Engineer

Major
This would be true if WS-15 is finished or near completion . Unfortunately , it isn't so . You could expect that various parameters of WS-15 change as development moves forward and various changes are implemented to overcome problems .
Firstly, there is little reason to believe that WS-15 is far from completion. Secondly and most importantly is that development revolves around the parameters. When testing is performed,the intention is to verify the product meets those performance parameters. When parameters constantly change, the result is engineering flop.

On the other , if china buys 117S , they would get full technical documentation just like with AL-31 .
Getting the technical documentation doesn't magically make the J-20 compatible with the 117S engine. Significant time will be needed to digest and verify those information, after which more time will be needed to apply those information in the redesign of the aircraft.

Since 117S is not that different from AL-31 , I would expect that mastering this engine would not delay J-20 program more than 2 years .
That's the kind of mentality that causes delay in engineering projects. Minor changes can have significant effects in engineering, such as in the area of control systems.
 

thunderchief

Senior Member
Firstly, there is little reason to believe that WS-15 is far from completion. Secondly and most importantly is that development revolves around the parameters. When testing is performed,the intention is to verify the product meets those performance parameters. When parameters constantly change, the result is engineering flop.

I'm not very optimistic about WS-15 program and reason is we have not seen or heard anything new about it for years .
Secondly , you have to differentiate between testing while developing ,and final testing . When you do periodical test of still unfinished product you have to expect changes of parameters . In this case , engineers working on J-20 would have to expect that in some point of time different engine will be installed instead of AL-31

Getting the technical documentation doesn't magically make the J-20 compatible with the 117S engine. Significant time will be needed to digest and verify those information, after which more time will be needed to apply those information in the redesign of the aircraft.

It will take time , that is certain . Same with WS-15 , when it is finally completed .

That's the kind of mentality that causes delay in engineering projects. Minor changes can have significant effects in engineering, such as in the area of control systems.

Wrong . Good engineer will expect that in some point of time his product will have to be upgraded . In this case (J-20) new engine , probably new avionics , maybe new RAM etc ... That is why you need to strive for modularity and for creativity in design , in order to anticipate future redesigns .
 

Engineer

Major
I'm not very optimistic about WS-15 program and reason is we have not seen or heard anything new about it for years .
That is not a reason to expect the engine to be far from completion.

Secondly , you have to differentiate between testing while developing ,and final testing . When you do periodical test of still unfinished product you have to expect changes of parameters . In this case , engineers working on J-20 would have to expect that in some point of time different engine will be installed instead of AL-31
There is no such differentiation because there is no such thing as testing while developing. Perhaps you are thinking of research phase, but that precedes the design stage and in fact precedes the entire project. Main development takes place within the design stage, where solutions are formed to meet those performance parameters. What comes afterward is manufacturing. Testing comes after everything else to verify those parameters can be met.

With a decision made to work with AL-31 as a temporary measure and the WS-15 afterward, the J-20 would have been designed with two sets of parameters. That is not the case of changing from one set of parameters to another.

It will take time , that is certain . Same with WS-15 , when it is finally completed .
Both engines take time, but 117S will take more. The performance of 117S is an unknown until purchased, and one cannot design something around an unknown. The performance of WS-15 is known, because China designs the engine and has access to all the functional parameters before an engine is even built. As a result, to adopt the 117S engine to J-20 now will require a lot more time than WS-15.

Wrong . Good engineer will expect that in some point of time his product will have to be upgraded . In this case (J-20) new engine , probably new avionics , maybe new RAM etc ... That is why you need to strive for modularity and for creativity in design , in order to anticipate future redesigns .
Wrong. What you have said has nothing to do with modularity or creativity. What it really is is "lack of foresight".

A good engineer will take into account of as many potential problems as possible. He will not depend on something in the future that he has no control over to resolve his current problems. That is why a decision is made to have the J-20 first flying with AL-31.
 

latenlazy

Brigadier
I'm not very optimistic about WS-15 program and reason is we have not seen or heard anything new about it for years .
That's just a really bad way to gauge the progress of opaque projects, especially in China's case. By your logic, we shouldn't have been expecting a Chinese AESA a few years ago either.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
I'm not very optimistic about WS-15 program and reason is we have not seen or heard anything new about it for years .
Secondly , you have to differentiate between testing while developing ,and final testing . When you do periodical test of still unfinished product you have to expect changes of parameters . In this case , engineers working on J-20 would have to expect that in some point of time different engine will be installed instead of AL-31



It will take time , that is certain . Same with WS-15 , when it is finally completed .



Wrong . Good engineer will expect that in some point of time his product will have to be upgraded . In this case (J-20) new engine , probably new avionics , maybe new RAM etc ... That is why you need to strive for modularity and for creativity in design , in order to anticipate future redesigns .

it is hard to know, because most i have heard (my personal experience) is pure rumour, the Russians are flying 117 or Al41F1S and still have trouble but by 2015 the new engine will be flying now they are building it


i, Fédorov explicó que el nuevo motor del caza de quinta generación T-50 será completamente diferente al motor 117S [AL-41F1S, en Rusia], considerado como el motor de 'primera etapa' del desarrollo de la aeronave.

hora estamos en la etapa de fabricación de sus prototipos. Creo que en 2015 el motor ya estará instalado en el avión", destacó Fédorov, precisando que está seguro de la finalización exitosa del proyecto porque -recalcó- "en lo que se refiere a motores militares estamos a un nivel bastante bueno, incluso en comparación con Occidente



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Russia is developing a new engine for PAKFA, the one of Su-35 is the lowest thrust, J-20 is flying with old engines, WS-15? where is it? no idea, perhaps is ending its design stage, but i doubt it because the americans think China has less fighters that suggest low production numbers for their engines WS-10s

today’s PLAAF features several fighters brought into service in the 2000s. Some were purchased from Russia, while others were built under license by China’s two major combat aircraft manufacturers, Shenyang Aircraft Corp. and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group. Together they total nearly 400 aircraft whose aerodynamic characteristics and armament may be close to par with US fighters, excepting the F-22

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see they say

16 J-11Bs and a max of 120- 200 J-10s which suggest low production of WS-10s
 
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Engineer

Major
Russia is developing a new engine for PAKFA, the one of Su-35 is the lowest thrust, J-20 is flying with old engines, WS-15? where is it? no idea, perhaps is ending its design stage, but i doubt it because the americans think China has less fighters that suggest low production numbers for their engines WS-10s

today’s PLAAF features several fighters brought into service in the 2000s. Some were purchased from Russia, while others were built under license by China’s two major combat aircraft manufacturers, Shenyang Aircraft Corp. and Chengdu Aircraft Industry Group. Together they total nearly 400 aircraft whose aerodynamic characteristics and armament may be close to par with US fighters, excepting the F-22
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see they say

16 J-11Bs and a max of 120- 200 J-10s which suggest low production of WS-10s

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has always been the go-to source for tracking the numbers of fighters in China. Data compiled from August of 2011:
plaafupdate.jpg


There were already seven regiments of J-10 back in 2011 totally more than 200 aircraft.

There were also four regiments of J-11B back then. We know the 1st regiment flies with Al-31, so that means three regiments of 72 J-11B fly with WS-10. This translates to over 140 WS-10 engines. In reality, there are even more because the above numbers do not take in account of J-11BS.
 

MiG-29

Banned Idiot
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has always been the go-to source for tracking the numbers of fighters in China.

There were already seven regiments of J-10 back in 2011 totally more than 200 aircraft.

There were also four regiments of J-11B back then. We know the 1st regiment flies with Al-31, so that means three regiments of 72 J-11B fly with WS-10. This translates to over 140 WS-10 engines. In reality, there are even more because the above numbers do not take in account of J-11BS.

You can believe whatever it fits your desire, the data of the article i am quoting is based upon Sources: Asian Military Review, "The AMR Regional Air Force Directory 2012," and David A. Shlapak, RAND, "Equipping the PLAAF," in The Chinese Air Force by Hallion, Cliff, and Saunders
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if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs niether Rebecca Grant
Rebecca Grant is president of IRIS Independent Research. Her most recent article
for Air Force Magazine was “Ascendent Eagle” in the July issue


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Skywatcher

Captain
if you want to believe there are 2000 J-11Bs you are free to believe it, however AIR FORCE Magazine did not think they have 2000 J-11Bs niether Rebecca Grant

Nobody said there were 2000 J-11Bs, you chucklehead!

But I'm sure that demolishing strawmen is irrefutable proof of your intellectual correctness.
 
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