Chinese purchase of Su-35

A

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
vesicles said:
No, it's actually the opposite. Traditionally, the Chinese have been wanting nothing to do with the foreigners. That was why they closed the doors to the outside world in the 1500's. that's why they built the great walls. Every leader since Mao has stressed the importance of being independent of foreign influence. In Chinese mind, dependence on foreign help is a weakness that can be exploited by the other party. Thats why they hate it. yes, the Chinese are conservative, but that actually makes them less willing to accept help. Isn't that the definition of conservative?

Everything the Chinese are doing indicates they are throwing away the crutches. They haven't imported any major weapons since 2004 and they are investing heavily on domestic programs. On the civilian sectors, they require all foreign companies to do tech transfer, indicating that they plan to do it themselves, instead of depending on the foreigners.
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This is 110% true.

However, I will not be mad if 24 Su-35 are bought, because it opens doors to 117S, which is better than anything China has right now. Use 117S for J-20A for about 8 years and when WS-15 is ready use WS-15. If not when WS-10 becomes mature and advanced enough use WS-10.

I personally hope that China do not buy Su-35, but if they do buy a small amount like less than 48. I will not be too upset!
 
D

delft

Brigadier
vesicles said:
that's why they built the great walls.
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OT
This is really history. The Chinese great walls were larger than those in Western Europe because they run to the South of a very large steppe area that was the basis a a succession of mounted nomad warrior states. In Western Europe there are smaller walls like Hadrian's Wall and Offa's Dyke (
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) in England , a multitude of Landwehre in Germany and similar structures all over Western Europe. These were built when the population density was sufficient. They made operations more difficult for armies and were most often used as barriers to close gaps between natural obstacles. The last one was the Maginot Line (
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).
The alternative was a system of feudal castles over a great depth with the disadvantage that the owners of the castles would often fight each other rather than a common enemy. Or later a system of fortress towns or fortresses, in the 18th and 19th century.
 
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Engineer

Engineer

Major
AeroEngineer said:
This is 110% true.

However, I will not be mad if 24 Su-35 are bought, because it opens doors to 117S, which is better than anything China has right now. Use 117S for J-20A for about 8 years and when WS-15 is ready use WS-15. If not when WS-10 becomes mature and advanced enough use WS-10.

I personally hope that China do not buy Su-35, but if they do buy a small amount like less than 48. I will not be too upset!
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The 117S, and by extension the entire Su-35 isn't as valuable to China as you think. Otherwise, China would have agreed to buy the Su-35 long ago, and the J-20 would have first flew with 117S engines instead of Al-31.

What China appears to be doing is to get as many tests out of the way as possible, and have the tests that focus on the integration of WS-15 take place toward the end. Using a new type of engine now will require China to go through many extra steps involve re-design and testing. It will delay rather than speeding up the J-20's schedule. It makes little sense for China to incur great expense to take such a huge detour and contributing zero benefit for domestic programs.
 
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A

AeroEngineer

Junior Member
Engineer said:
The 117S, and by extension the entire Su-35 isn't as valuable to China as you think. Otherwise, China would have agreed to buy the Su-35 long ago, and the J-20 would have first flew with 117S engines instead of Al-31.

What China appears to be doing is to get as many tests out of the way as possible, and have the tests that focus on the integration of WS-15 take place toward the end. Using a new type of engine now will require China to go through many extra steps involve re-design and testing. It will delay rather than speeding up the J-20's schedule. It makes little sense for China to incur great expense to take such a huge detour and contributing zero benefit for domestic programs.
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You are right.:D
 
thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
Engineer said:
The 117S, and by extension the entire Su-35 isn't as valuable to China as you think. Otherwise, China would have agreed to buy the Su-35 long ago, and the J-20 would have first flew with 117S engines instead of Al-31.

What China appears to be doing is to get as many tests out of the way as possible, and have the tests that focus on the integration of WS-15 take place toward the end. Using a new type of engine now will require China to go through many extra steps involve re-design and testing. It will delay rather than speeding up the J-20's schedule. It makes little sense for China to incur great expense to take such a huge detour and contributing zero benefit for domestic programs.
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Au contraire , 117S is now more interesting then lets say 5 years ago , as J-20 program moves from design phase to flight tests and even weapons and avionics tests . 5 years ago they could have said : "Ok , we have time , we would wait for WS-15 while we resolve problems with airframe " . Now , basic shape and size of J-20 is finalized and "frozen" . There won't be any major changes in that regard . Major task ahead is integration . You would need to put all different systems together ( avionics , software , engines , weapons systems .... ) .

So far , J-20 is flying with AL-31 . This means that airframe (fuselage) and aircraft control systems are tuned and configured for this engine . If you want to swap engine this will be the time , because later other systems will be added and they may be affected with new engine and as you mentioned yourself that may include redesign and more testing

Therefore , decision will have to be taken :
1. proceed with AL-31 and have first LRIP planes ready around 2018. but with inferior performance . Later do additional testing and redesign for WS-15
2. buy 117S , adjust plane accordingly and have first LRIP planes around 2020. , inferior to F-22 (kinetically) but superior to F-35 .
3. wait for WS-15 and do only rudimentary test until it comes online , then start LRIP around 2023. with planes kinetically superior to current level F-22 .
 
SinoSoldier

SinoSoldier

Colonel
thunderchief said:
Au contraire , 117S is now more interesting then lets say 5 years ago , as J-20 program moves from design phase to flight tests and even weapons and avionics tests . 5 years ago they could have said : "Ok , we have time , we would wait for WS-15 while we resolve problems with airframe " . Now , basic shape and size of J-20 is finalized and "frozen" . There won't be any major changes in that regard . Major task ahead is integration . You would need to put all different systems together ( avionics , software , engines , weapons systems .... ) .

So far , J-20 is flying with AL-31 . This means that airframe (fuselage) and aircraft control systems are tuned and configured for this engine . If you want to swap engine this will be the time , because later other systems will be added and they may be affected with new engine and as you mentioned yourself that may include redesign and more testing

Therefore , decision will have to be taken :
1. proceed with AL-31 and have first LRIP planes ready around 2018. but with inferior performance . Later do additional testing and redesign for WS-15
2. buy 117S , adjust plane accordingly and have first LRIP planes around 2020. , inferior to F-22 (kinetically) but superior to F-35 .
3. wait for WS-15 and do only rudimentary test until it comes online , then start LRIP around 2023. with planes kinetically superior to current level F-22 .
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That of course is assuming that the WS-15 is facing serious delays, which we have no knowledge of.
 
Engineer

Engineer

Major
thunderchief said:
Au contraire , 117S is now more interesting then lets say 5 years ago , as J-20 program moves from design phase to flight tests and even weapons and avionics tests . 5 years ago they could have said : "Ok , we have time , we would wait for WS-15 while we resolve problems with airframe " . Now , basic shape and size of J-20 is finalized and "frozen" . There won't be any major changes in that regard . Major task ahead is integration . You would need to put all different systems together ( avionics , software , engines , weapons systems .... ) .

So far , J-20 is flying with AL-31 . This means that airframe (fuselage) and aircraft control systems are tuned and configured for this engine . If you want to swap engine this will be the time , because later other systems will be added and they may be affected with new engine and as you mentioned yourself that may include redesign and more testing

Therefore , decision will have to be taken :
1. proceed with AL-31 and have first LRIP planes ready around 2018. but with inferior performance . Later do additional testing and redesign for WS-15
2. buy 117S , adjust plane accordingly and have first LRIP planes around 2020. , inferior to F-22 (kinetically) but superior to F-35 .
3. wait for WS-15 and do only rudimentary test until it comes online , then start LRIP around 2023. with planes kinetically superior to current level F-22 .
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Not so. The difference between using WS-15 and using 117S is that in the former case, China knows of all the performance parameters and has plenty of time to add provisions for the WS-15 during J-20's design phase. When WS-15 becomes ready, China only has to build a new prototype configured for the WS-15, then perform testings. No re-design would be necessary because the design is already there.

With the 117S engine, China knows nearly nothing about it. As such, provisions could not be added during the design phase to enable J-20 to work with this engine. That is why a re-design would be need, and is also why switching to 117S engine would actually cause delay to the program.
 
nkvd

nkvd

New Member
AeroEngineer said:
I have faith in Chinese engine development. However, you have to addmit that 117S is currently Russia's best engine ( it is still more realiable than the 117 !).117 or type 30 is still underdevelopment and so cannot be called unreliable
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nkvd

nkvd

New Member
"3. wait for WS-15 and do only rudimentary test until it comes online , then start LRIP around 2023. with planes kinetically superior to current level F-22 ."

How do you know WS-15 is superior to engine on f-22?have i missed something?if WS-15 is superior then China is now in a league of its own-the best and most advanced jet engine manufacturer in the world.is this true?
 
thunderchief

thunderchief

Senior Member
nkvd said:
How do you know WS-15 is superior to engine on f-22?have i missed something?if WS-15 is superior then China is now in a league of its own-the best and most advanced jet engine manufacturer in the world.is this true?
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WS-15 targets 180kN with afterburner , Pratt & Whitney F119 is below 160kN .

SinoSoldier said:
That of course is assuming that the WS-15 is facing serious delays, which we have no knowledge of.
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Last news about WS-15 were from 2010. Core supposed to be finished long ago , but still no working prototype .

Engineer said:
Not so. The difference between using WS-15 and using 117S is that in the former case, China knows of all the performance parameters and has plenty of time to add provisions for the WS-15 during J-20's design phase. When WS-15 becomes ready, China only has to build a new prototype configured for the WS-15, then perform testings. No re-design would be necessary because the design is already there.

With the 117S engine, China knows nearly nothing about it. As such, provisions could not be added during the design phase to enable J-20 to work with this engine. That is why a re-design would be need, and is also why switching to 117S engine would actually cause delay to the program.
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This would be true if WS-15 is finished or near completion . Unfortunately , it isn't so . You could expect that various parameters of WS-15 change as development moves forward and various changes are implemented to overcome problems .

On the other , if china buys 117S , they would get full technical documentation just like with AL-31 .Since 117S is not that different from AL-31 , I would expect that mastering this engine would not delay J-20 program more than 2 years .
 
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