Chinese purchase of Su-35

thunderchief said:

Wrong . Russians know what is the main selling point of Su-35 . It is just a matter of bargaining : you need to buy X planes to get additional Y engines .

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Nothing you have said here invalidate my statements. From Russia's perspective, China must first buy Su-35 and only then would Russia be willing to talk about sales of 117S. So just as I have said, purchasing Su-35 will only means delivery of Su-35. Extra engines would require extra negotiations.

thunderchief said:

I said before , if China has confidence in WS-15 they would not buy Su-35 and 117S . And if they have their doubts , they would reconsider 117S (which btw is from the same famili as AL-31 already used on J-20 )

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If China has confidence in WS-15, they would not buy Su-35 and 117S. Indeed, no deal of Su-35 or 117S ever materialized. As time progress, the idea of purchasing 117S for J-20 will only becomes more unrealistic, as WS-15 becomes closer and closer to becoming ready.

thunderchief said:

J-10B would not be good enough for F-35 (even Su-35 is not equivalent but could beat them in certain scenarios ) . And yes , J-10B currently needs Russian engines .

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Your own statement actually explains why the Su-35 will not be brought. There is no advantage in getting the Su-35 over J-10B as both are not equivalent match to 4th generation fighters. Yet, the issue of Su-35's incompatibility with China's existing systems remains. Whether the J-10B will use Russian or domestic engine is completely irrelevant.

thunderchief said:

China will retain J-7s until 2020. and God knows how long will various versions of J-8 , J-10 and J-11 keep flying . I'm certain Su-35 is not inferior to these planes and could be used for long time even in the 5th gen environment .

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Having outdated planes now do not justify getting inferior planes for the future. There is no point in investing in the Su-35 as it is already inferior to the likes of F-22 and F-35 right from the outset. If there is a need for inferior planes, then there are more competitive domestic alternatives for China to choose from.

thunderchief said:

Yeah , like current Su-27 SK and Su-30 MKK hurt PLAAF badly They are completely incompatible and should be scraped immediately

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Having been in service with the PLAAF for a decade, these planes have already seen modifications to make them work with Chinese systems. However, you are right that they should be phased out as soon as possible.

thunderchief said:

You don't "hand" sensitive electronics . You provide blueprints for interface so they could communicate with other equipment .

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Please explain how Chinese avionics will be installed on the Su-35 at Russian factory if China does not hand them over. Teleportation?

thunderchief said:

Do you think Israelis or French just handed over their secrets to Russia and India . Btw , if China ever wants to become big exporter of warplanes , it would have to provide this data to customers .

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It seems you are unaware of the fact that domestic and export systems are different. The French and Israelis never risked leaking their secrets to Russia to begin with, because the systems made for India are not the same as the systems used domestically by France and Israel. Likewise, China exporting its own systems for foreign customers does not mean China is exposing its own secrets, because those systems are not the same as those used domestically.

Neither France or Israel will agree to have their sensitive avionics handled by foreign engineers in foreign territory, just as China will not agree to handover Chinese avionics to the Russians for installation on the Su-35.

thunderchief said:

It still doesn't have WS-10B .

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Yes, it does.

thunderchief said:

In fact , engine problems are delaying whole program . There are rumors that first batch of J-10B would use AL-31

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Delay and engine problems are merely your speculations, not facts.

Here are the facts and are verifiable. Firstly, the J-10B first flew in 2008 and has only been though five years of test flights. Secondly, the vanilla J-10 had been through nearly eight years of test flights, from 1998 until induction in 2006. Thirdly, the J-10B has new airframe, new radars, and new weapon systems. So based on these three facts, we can infer that the flight test campaign of J-10B should at most last eight years. From this, it is obvious that the reason J-10B still isn't in service yet is because there should still be another three years of test flights.

Engineer said:

Yes, it does.
Delay and engine problems are merely your speculations, not facts.

Here are the facts and are verifiable. Firstly, the J-10B first flew in 2008 and has only been though five years of test flights. Secondly, the vanilla J-10 had been through nearly eight years of test flights, from 1998 until induction in 2006. Thirdly, the J-10B has new airframe, new radars, and new weapon systems. So based on these three facts, we can infer that the flight test campaign of J-10B should at most last eight years. From this, it is obvious that the reason J-10B still isn't in service yet is because there should still be another three years of test flights.

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J-10B won't need 8 years flight test, 5 years would be enough. It will be mass produced this year.

J-10 had to have 8 years flight test because it was the first time China developed 4th generation aircraft, so a lot of unknown factors. But China now (2013) is a totally different beast.

The thing I don't understand here is... why was this topic being discussed over and over again when both the Russian and the Chinese actually deny any deal being signed

Whether the Su-35 is an excellent aircraft that could beat the crap out of any Chinese aircrafts and even any European aircraft and whether the Vietnamese would buy them, or the Indian would buy them or which ever would buy them. Or if 117S engine is the best engines out there... the thing is... all those are irrelevant...

The hard fact now is, China and Russia deny any signing of a deal in black and white, then there is no deal, nothing whatsoever. And why that happen can be anybody's guess or deduction.

AeroEngineer said:

I have great faith with Chinese engines. They have come a long way !

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If you have faith in the Chinese engines, why suggest to buy 117S? Let them work it out on their own! That is the only way they can mature.

rhino123 said:

The thing I don't understand here is... why was this topic being discussed over and over again when both the Russian and the Chinese actually deny any deal being signed

Whether the Su-35 is an excellent aircraft that could beat the crap out of any Chinese aircrafts and even any European aircraft and whether the Vietnamese would buy them, or the Indian would buy them or which ever would buy them. Or if 117S engine is the best engines out there... the thing is... all those are irrelevant...

The hard fact now is, China and Russia deny any signing of a deal in black and white, then there is no deal, nothing whatsoever. And why that happen can be anybody's guess or deduction.

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It's because the Su35 proponents still refuse to believe that China's fighters' programs have matured. In their mind, China still needs help with everything. It is still inconceivable to them that China is now capable of designing and manufacturing its own fighters. Because they lack faith, they think that the Chinese govn't should also lack faith in their engineers. Thus, in these people's mind, the Chinese govn't would have no choice but to seek outside help.

Additionally, I don't think these people understand China. they see nations like India or Vietnam desperately want to buy advanced planes from somewhere else. Then they think China would have to be in the same mindset. However, China is not India and China is not Vietnam. China's goal is not simply just getting some advanced fighters. Once they get around to understand a little more about China's ambition and China's long term goals, they will let go of the Su35 thing.

Also, if they take a closer look at China's track record, they will see that everything China does is to eventually have their own indigenous programs, from military hardware to civilian cars and electronics. All those foreign companies that open factories in China must also sign technology transfer agreements. It is plain obvious that China is not satisfied with only making some money now with all the foreign investments. They want the technology so that they can do it themselves. The civilian sector is like this and the military sector is the same. Once these Su35 proponents understand this, it will make sense to them why China is not buying Su35 and will not buy Su35.

Again, the benefit of complete indigenous fighter programs out-weighs the however little benefit of buying Su35 (if there is any...) by an immeasurable amount. It is a philosophical and strategic issue. However, the Su35 proponents still stay on the tactical stage and argue the details of this and that (be it the engines or whatever). All of talks about specific hardware/software on Chinese fighters are irrelevant because what China looks at is a strategic benefit, not certain tactical benefit. Once that is understood, they will appreciate why China is willing to sacrifice speed (of acquiring certain technology) to obtain complete indigenous efficiency.

I was thinking about writing long answer , but what's the point ? Some of you guys get to emotional when we talk about China's progress so I'm going to leave the discussion with just a few remarks :

AeroEngineer said:

If China does not get 117S, then there is no way in hell will China buy Su-35 !! This is a simple fact !

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Of course . But if the China doesn't buy Su-35 there is almost no chance Russia will sell just engines . Therefore , if the China wants 117S (some of us doubt that ) there will be a compromise : China buys both the plane and the engines.

Engineer said:

Please explain how Chinese avionics will be installed on the Su-35 at Russian factory if China does not hand them over. Teleportation?

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Generally , avionics in case like this could be installed in various ways . If we have provider (in this case Russia ) and client (in this case China) , there could be various scenarios :

1. Avionics delivered to provider like black boxes with mutually agreed interface . There kept under guard until delivered to client (sensitive software installed later )

2. Planes delivered without sensitive avionics , later installed at client's facility upon mutually agreed interface

3. Whole planes delivered in knocked-down kits , later assembled in client's facility .

4. Client and provider have mutual thrust , so they share secret and sensitive data (obviously not in this case )

thunderchief said:

I was thinking about writing long answer , but what's the point ? Some of you guys get to emotional when we talk about China's progress so I'm going to leave the discussion with just a few remarks :



Of course . But if the China doesn't buy Su-35 there is almost no chance Russia will sell just engines . Therefore , if the China wants 117S (some of us doubt that ) there will be a compromise : China buys both the plane and the engines.



Generally , avionics in case like this could be installed in various ways . If we have provider (in this case Russia ) and client (in this case China) , there could be various scenarios :

1. Avionics delivered to provider like black boxes with mutually agreed interface . There kept under guard until delivered to client (sensitive software installed later )

2. Planes delivered without sensitive avionics , later installed at client's facility upon mutually agreed interface

3. Whole planes delivered in knocked-down kits , later assembled in client's facility .

4. Client and provider have mutual thrust , so they share secret and sensitive data (obviously not in this case )

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Come on... as much as the Su-35 is as good an aircraft as anyone of you might wanted to believe and 117S is as good an engine as anyone of you wanted to believe... it is all irrelevant here.

Because both China and Russia denied a deal being signed. And that is the cold hard fact. Unless there is a contract out there and Su-35 started delivering, it is nothing but rumors that don't hold grounds... and again that is a cold hard fact.

thunderchief said:

Generally , avionics in case like this could be installed in various ways . If we have provider (in this case Russia ) and client (in this case China) , there could be various scenarios :

1. Avionics delivered to provider like black boxes with mutually agreed interface . There kept under guard until delivered to client (sensitive software installed later )

2. Planes delivered without sensitive avionics , later installed at client's facility upon mutually agreed interface

3. Whole planes delivered in knocked-down kits , later assembled in client's facility .

4. Client and provider have mutual thrust , so they share secret and sensitive data (obviously not in this case )

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Your forth point pretty much rules out the possibility of your other three points.

Engineer said:

Your forth point pretty much rules out the possibility of your other three points.

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I was talking about general relationship between provider(seller) and customer There were instances when both sides trust each other enough to share secrets (US - Israel , US - Canada , US - UK ...) . Obviously , this is not the case between Russia and China (at least not for now) , but there are other options . China's decision regarding the purchase of Su-35 would not depend on some imaginary technical or logistical difficulty . Instead , it will depend on the progress of WS-15 and to a lesser extent on introduction of F-35 in the region .