Chinese purchase of Su-35

SinoSoldier · Aug 6, 2013

thunderchief said:
Wrong . Russians know what is the main selling point of Su-35 . It is just a matter of bargaining : you need to buy X planes to get additional Y engines .

A clear counterexample to this would be the fact that China was able to order Al-31 without other aircraft.

thunderchief said:
I said before , if China has confidence in WS-15 they would not buy Su-35 and 117S . And if they have their doubts , they would reconsider 117S (which btw is from the same famili as AL-31 already used on J-20 )

If China had problems with the WS15 they would initially use Al-31 on the J-20.

thunderchief said:
J-10B would not be good enough for F-35 (even Su-35 is not equivalent but could beat them in certain scenarios ) . And yes , J-10B currently needs Russian engines .

J-10B can also beat the F-35 in certain scenarios. So can the J-11B, J-15, J-16.

thunderchief said:
China will retain J-7s until 2020. and God knows how long will various versions of J-8 , J-10 and J-11 keep flying . I'm certain Su-35 is not inferior to these planes and could be used for long time even in the 5th gen environment .

J-10 is certainly not inferior to these as well.

thunderchief said:
Yeah , like current Su-27 SK and Su-30 MKK hurt PLAAF badly They are completely incompatible and should be scraped immediately

Guess why they built the J-11B and J-15 and why Russia threw a tantrum over it.

thunderchief said:
You don't "hand" sensitive electronics . You provide blueprints for interface so they could communicate with other equipment . Do you think Israelis or French just handed over their secrets to Russia and India . Btw , if China ever wants to become big exporter of warplanes , it would have to provide this data to customers .

Rewiring the electronics would take time and so far none of the Su-27SK or Su-30MKK could fire Chinese weapons.

thunderchief · Aug 6, 2013

SinoSoldier said:
1. A squadron of Su-35S is not worth a couple of 117S engines. When China bought the Al-31, they had not yet finished on the WS-10 and has nowhere near the number of engine programs it does at this moment.

Said it before , it all depends on WS-15 . If China thinks it is progressing well then fine - they don't need Su-35 .

SinoSoldier said:
2. Rafale does not need the Su-35S to be countered. A similar performing jet like the J-10B and J-15 would suffice. As for the F-35, many PLAAF fighters are upgraded with technologies found on 5th generation aircraft.

J-10B could match Rafale , but it would need better engine then AL-31 . And keep in mind that India would start to receive Super Sukhoi (improved version of Su-30 MKI ) at about same time as Rafale

SinoSoldier · Aug 6, 2013

thunderchief said:
Said it before , it all depends on WS-15 . If China thinks it is progressing well then fine - they don't need Su-35 .

J-10B could match Rafale , but it would need better engine then AL-31 . And keep in mind that India would start to receive Super Sukhoi (improved version of Su-30 MKI ) at about same time as Rafale

The J-10B has better engines than the Al-31, the WS-10B. The Super 30 MKI could easily be countered by the upgraded J-11B and J-16.

thunderchief · Aug 6, 2013

SinoSoldier said:
A clear counterexample to this would be the fact that China was able to order Al-31 without other aircraft.

No, China did have to buy Su-27SK and SU-30 MKK first . That is the way of the world .

SinoSoldier said:
If China had problems with the WS15 they would initially use Al-31 on the J-20.

I won't comment on that , we already had big discussion on J-20 thread . Just want to say there are lot of AL-31 fans on this forum

SinoSoldier said:
J-10B can also beat the F-35 in certain scenarios. So can the J-11B, J-15, J-16.

Very slim chances . Compare flight characteristics of J-10 with Su-35 and you would get the picture .

SinoSoldier said:
J-10 is certainly not inferior to these as well.

J-10A is honestly very much inferior to su-35 . J-10B not so much , but Su-35 still has the advantage . If Su-35 becomes obsolete in few years (as Engineer claimed ) , what would happen to all those brand new J-10s being built right now ?

SinoSoldier said:
Guess why they built the J-11B and J-15 and why Russia threw a tantrum over it.

A lot of these planes are using good old AL-31

SinoSoldier said:
Rewiring the electronics would take time and so far none of the Su-27SK or Su-30MKK could fire Chinese weapons.

Well wrong . Su-35 was built with open architecture with Su-30MKI experience in mind .

thunderchief · Aug 6, 2013

SinoSoldier said:
The J-10B has better engines than the Al-31, the WS-10B. The Super 30 MKI could easily be countered by the upgraded J-11B and J-16.

It still doesn't have WS-10B . In fact , engine problems are delaying whole program . There are rumors that first batch of J-10B would use AL-31

vesicles · Aug 6, 2013

thunderchief said:
No, China did have to buy Su-27SK and SU-30 MKK first . That is the way of the world .

I won't comment on that , we already had big discussion on J-20 thread . Just want to say there are lot of AL-31 fans on this forum

Very slim chances . Compare flight characteristics of J-10 with Su-35 and you would get the picture .

J-10A is honestly very much inferior to su-35 . J-10B not so much , but Su-35 still has the advantage . If Su-35 becomes obsolete in few years (as Engineer claimed ) , what would happen to all those brand new J-10s being built right now ?

A lot of these planes are using good old AL-31

Well wrong . Su-35 was built with open architecture with Su-30MKI experience in mind .

The state/quality of China own fighters and engines is irrelevant in their decision on Su35!

As I discussed earlier, China is determined to have its own fighter program. What China knows about fighters now is qualitatively different from what China knew about fighters 20 years when China imported foreign planes. China now has the confidence to solve whatever problems that might/have come up during their own development process. There is no need, absolutely no need, for them to lose confidence and start panicking and to begin buying foreign planes in hope of obtaining that little bits of clues that they might be able to get from those planes.

China's own fighters programs have matured enough so that the govn't has already seen the light at the end of the tunnel and has the patience to wait for their engineers to solve the issues. All the new indigenous fighters that are coming out lately, J-10, J-20, J-31, etc, should convince the Chinese govn't that their engineers are capable of developing their own fighters. There is now absolutely no reason for them to ask for foreign help now.

Again, it is NOT about how advanced China's current fighters/engines. It is much bigger than that. China wants to develop their own independent programs. To do that, China will NOT import foreign planes again! Period.

SinoSoldier · Aug 6, 2013

thunderchief said:
No, China did have to buy Su-27SK and SU-30 MKK first . That is the way of the world .

And what suggests that the Su-27SK and Su-30MKK were the requirements for further engine purchases?

thunderchief said:
I won't comment on that , we already had big discussion on J-20 thread . Just want to say there are lot of AL-31 fans on this forum

Well then there is no justification on your part to suggest the 117S either.

thunderchief said:
Very slim chances . Compare flight characteristics of J-10 with Su-35 and you would get the picture .

What picture? The only think comparing the J-10 airframe to the Flanker airframe is that the J-10 has defeated the Flanker in virtually every single simulated combat exercise, mostly due to its extremely low stability, high turning rate, and high AoA. Besides you would have to take other factors such as avionics and sensor fusion, all of which are immensely upgraded in the J-10B.

thunderchief said:
J-10A is honestly very much inferior to su-35 . J-10B not so much , but Su-35 still has the advantage . If Su-35 becomes obsolete in few years (as Engineer claimed ) , what would happen to all those brand new J-10s being built right now ?

Both planes have advantages. It's all about what the PLAAF wants, and so far the Su-35S is simply too akin to indigenous Chinese Flankers to warrant a purchase that in turn will slaughter any logistics ease.

thunderchief said:
A lot of these planes are using good old AL-31

False. The J-11B has been serving with the WS-10A since 2009. The J-15 and J-16 prototypes are also sporting them.

thunderchief said:
Well wrong . Su-35 was built with open architecture with Su-30MKI experience in mind .

So were the Su-30MKK and Su-27SK but look at how they turned out.

SinoSoldier · Aug 6, 2013

thunderchief said:
It still doesn't have WS-10B . In fact , engine problems are delaying whole program . There are rumors that first batch of J-10B would use AL-31

The rumor that the first batch of J-10B using Al-31 is rooted in the fact that the WS-10B production line is slower than other engines, not the fact that such WS-10B is not reliable.

Zool · Aug 6, 2013

This discussion always comes down to Engines.

Russia will either sell it's newer uprated engines to China or it won't. It is a matter of numbers. I do not however believe at this point in time, the answer is tied to Su-35.

Russia is well aware of Chinese progress in 4+ and 5th Generation Air Frames (both Design & Manufacture capacity). China is well along with it's new generation Radar Set's, and the use of Indigenous Munitions is critical to efficient logistics, especially in time of conflict. All of this works against the logic of importing Su-35, which is indeed a fine system.

China I believe has been interested in importing a relatively low number of 117S class engines until WS-15 becomes certified. Russia has likely suggested a larger long-term supply contract. IMHO I do not believe we will see China operating Su-35. Depending on Chinese view of progress with WS-15 you may or may not see an engine contract for 117S.

In any case, the more time that goes by without news of a contract, we can likely infer things are going well with WS-15 development.

Cheers,
Zool

AeroEngineer · Aug 6, 2013

Zool said:
This discussion always comes down to Engines.

Russia will either sell it's newer uprated engines to China or it won't. It is a matter of numbers. I do not however believe at this point in time, the answer is tied to Su-35.

Russia is well aware of Chinese progress in 4+ and 5th Generation Air Frames (both Design & Manufacture capacity). China is well along with it's new generation Radar Set's, and the use of Indigenous Munitions is critical to efficient logistics, especially in time of conflict. All of this works against the logic of importing Su-35, which is indeed a fine system.

China I believe has been interested in importing a relatively low number of 117S class engines until WS-15 becomes certified. Russia has likely suggested a larger long-term supply contract. IMHO I do not believe we will see China operating Su-35. Depending on Chinese view of progress with WS-15 you may or may not see an engine contract for 117S.

In any case, the more time that goes by without news of a contract, we can likely infer things are going well with WS-15 development.

Cheers,
Zool

If China does not get 117S, then there is no way in hell will China buy Su-35 !! This is a simple fact !

I still think that it is Ok to buy 24-48 Su-35 and get the 117S engine, until the GREAT WS-15 comes on line until 2022. Because 117S is Russia's best engine, it has 3D TVC, 142Kn of thrust, plus much better life and more realiable than the AL-31FN. However, China does not HAVE TO buy it ! Because WS-10A is already mature enough and is getting more and more mature each day pass on. The more advanced WS-10B with similar performance to the AL-31FM1 is also getting ready to be installed.

I have great faith with Chinese engines. They have come a long way !

Chinese purchase of Su-35

SinoSoldier

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thunderchief

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thunderchief

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vesicles

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Zool

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