Chinese purchase of Su-35

Well there was news earlier that a chinese delegation was sent to view a performance by the Su-35.

But this piece of news has been floating around for years now, let's wait until the chinese side says something, or better yet, when the PLAAF receives its first Su-35.

As for china coproducing this plane... that's a bit rich at this point.

Subedei said:

well, this unpopular speculation is in the news, again.

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i've listed these articles chronologically (as far as i can tell), but i think that particular details persented in the second and third are the most interesting. from the second, the detail that "special demonstration flights were performed for the Chinese guests on Wednesday', and from the third, the detail that, "China has yet to receive permission to produce its own version of the fighter", are both interesting, to me.

i find the detail of the special demonstration flights interesting in that it raises the question, with Bourget only weeks away, why the hurry and exclusivity? i find the detail of china not yet receiving permission to produce its own version interesting as my interpretation is that this would be the ideal arrangement for both parties.

in my mind, china, having proven its capabilities in building, producing, and modifying, the flanker frame - though not necessarily with russia's blessings, is ideally positioned to participate in a licensed production of the su-35. such an arrangement could also provide russia with funds much needed to maximize efficiency of their own su-35 production run. through a degree of integration, they could achieve an economy of scale in su-35 production that would give carlo kopp nightmares.

now, that's my thinking!

anyone else, here, thinking that chinese participation in the su-35 program just might be a rational option?

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Unless Russian allows Chinese avionics/data link to be install on Chinese Su-35 or at least allows indignenuous ammunition to be compatible with Russian avionics. I do not see how this Su-35 will materialise.

last year zhuhai airshow. Russia sukhoi came out in full force for the airshow to demonstrate Su-35 for Chinese military delegates.

Bltizo said:

that's a bit rich at this point.

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ahhh, but who among us doesn't strive for riches?

Lion said:

Unless Russian allows Chinese avionics/data link to be install on Chinese Su-35 or at least allows indignenuous ammunition to be compatible with Russian avionics. I do not see how this Su-35 will materialise.

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good point!!!

but, is this absolutely out of the question?

what allowances has russia, already, given india - an, as of yet, unproven partner, in the mki and pak-fa programs?

Subedei said:

good point!!!

but, is this absolutely out of the question?

what allowances has russia given india - an, as of yet, unproven partner, in the mki and pak-fa programs?

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Nothing !

The russians used indians to perfect the Su-30 design and then applied them on the Su-35. As for PAK-FA, india has no involvement in it at all (aerodynamics, radars, avonics, structural, engine, weapons) they only provide half of the project funding.

As for Su-35. I can see the reasons and probability for this 24 jets purchase:

1. 117S for the initial J-20A variant, WS-15 will not be ready until 2018 the earliest, and 117S is better than WS-10A and AL-31FN.

2. S-400, russia has attached the S-400 deal with Su-35.

3. Lada SSK, again they attached it.


The 24 Su-35 deal might be true even if it does not allow the Chinese to use its own munitions and avonics on it.

AeroEngineer said:

As for Su-35. I can see the reasons and probability for this 24 jets purchase:

1. 117S for the initial J-20A variant, WS-15 will not be ready until 2018 the earliest, and 117S is better than WS-10A and AL-31FN.

2. S-400, russia has attached the S-400 deal with Su-35.

3. Lada SSK, again they attached it.


The 24 Su-35 deal might be true even if it does not allow the Chinese to use its own munitions and avonics on it.

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Thats complete speculation, and i dont think these are urgent equpment for the chinese to merit buying 24 planes.

117S - just a more powerful version of AL-31. Besides, J-20 should enter service only at the end of this decade. They still only have 2 prototypes at this point.

S-400 - China already got indigenous version of S-300 and certainly is working on a better version of it. Isnt it true that S-400 is just a advanced version of S-300?

lada SSK - this sub isnt even in service with russia, having performance problems. China has revealed 2 years ago a new conventional sub (much bigger than lada) and most probably is working on a SSK version of it.

AeroEngineer said:

As for Su-35. I can see the reasons and probability for this 24 jets purchase:

1. 117S for the initial J-20A variant, WS-15 will not be ready until 2018 the earliest, and 117S is better than WS-10A and AL-31FN.

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That would be like taking a step back before moving forward. If China really wants 117S that badly for J-20, China would have waited instead of flying two J-20 prototypes with AL-31FN engines.

AeroEngineer said:

2. S-400, russia has attached the S-400 deal with Su-35.

3. Lada SSK, again they attached it.

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Only the Russians have claimed China wants S-400 and Lada SSK.

AeroEngineer said:

The 24 Su-35 deal might be true even if it does not allow the Chinese to use its own munitions and avonics on it.

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The inability for China to use its own munitions and avionics would be the biggest and foremost reason against any Su-35 deal. If Russia is willing to just deliver airframes for China to fit domestic avionics, then we can entertain the idea of a Su-35 deal. However, it isn't profitable for Russia to do this. If I recall correctly, Russians evenly openly stated that any aircraft sold to China will be fitted with Russian avionics and weapons.

Russia wants Russian avionics to be on exported Su-35 to get more money. With Russian avionics, the customer would then have no choice but to buy Russian weapons. Then the customer would have to buy ground support equipments from Russia for those weapons as well. Those ground equipments are designed to maximize profits rather than easing logistic, so each type of weapon will require its own set of support equipments. Not to mention are the sub deals that involve sending back components to Russia for maintenance.

The Su-35 deal is not just about the aircraft or the engine. It is about everything related to the aircraft. When you look at it this way, the whole thing is just another huge ripoff like the INS Vikramaditya deal.

kroko said:

Thats complete speculation, and i dont think these are urgent equpment for the chinese to merit buying 24 planes.

117S - just a more powerful version of AL-31. Besides, J-20 should enter service only at the end of this decade. They still only have 2 prototypes at this point.

S-400 - China already got indigenous version of S-300 and certainly is working on a better version of it. Isnt it true that S-400 is just a advanced version of S-300?

lada SSK - this sub isnt even in service with russia, having performance problems. China has revealed 2 years ago a new conventional sub (much bigger than lada) and most probably is working on a SSK version of it.

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Well, I personally think that is is completely STUPID for China to buy Su-35, however. On Chao Da, a famous Chinese military fourm people keep saying that this deal is happening.

I dont know why !!

As for S-400 and Lada, they are overrated weapons. S-400 is just S-300 with longer range missiles. Lada is not even ready yet !!

I just dont know the reason why this deal is not dead yet. People over Chao Da are still talking about it !

Engineer said:

That would be like taking a step back before moving forward. If China really wants 117S that badly for J-20, China would have waited instead of flying two J-20 prototypes with AL-31FN engines.


Only the Russians have claimed China wants S-400 and Lada SSK.


The inability for China to use its own munitions and avionics would be the biggest and foremost reason against any Su-35 deal. If Russia is willing to just deliver airframes for China to fit domestic avionics, then we can entertain the idea of a Su-35 deal. However, it isn't profitable for Russia to do this. If I recall correctly, Russians evenly openly stated that any aircraft sold to China will be fitted with Russian avionics and weapons.

Russia wants Russian avionics to be on exported Su-35 to get more money. With Russian avionics, the customer would then have no choice but to buy Russian weapons. Then the customer would have to buy ground support equipments from Russia for those weapons as well. Those ground equipments are designed to maximize profits rather than easing logistic, so each type of weapon will require its own set of support equipments. Not to mention are the sub deals that involve sending back components to Russia for maintenance.

The Su-35 deal is not just about the aircraft or the engine. It is about everything related to the aircraft. When you look at it this way, the whole thing is just another huge ripoff like the INS Vikramaditya deal.

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You know what I think ?

It is WS-10A's fault. China is going to use AL-31FN for the initial J-20 production, but J-10B using AL-31FN is not good enough, so 117S come into play. But Russia is not going to sell 117S unless China buys 24 Su-35. So basically the 24 Su-35 is trashed from the beining, China will not even use them ! Just spend 1.5 billdion USD to open doors for 117S, thats it !!!

Then use 117S to equib J-10B, even J-20A.

Again, you can go to Chao da and check it out. Everyone believes that the deal for 24 Su-35 is certain !

And recently Chinese airforce reps went to Moscow to check out Su-35 !! Why would they want to do that if they are not going to buy Su-35 ?

You see, it is all Shengyang Liming's fault, their sh!t engine WS-10A ruined the J-10, and now caused huge damage to the J-20 project.

WS-15 is not going to be ready until 2019 the earliest !! This is a fact.

Initially, China plan to use WS-10A for the flight test of J-20, and then use WS-10G for the J-20A. Now it is going to ge 117S.

As for WS-10A, it is not that it has realibility or quality problems, it is thrusts and high by pass ratio.

WS-10A has 125KN which was 5 KN less that the intended 130KN, it has a by pass ratio of 0.8 which was significantly larger than AL-31FN's BP ratio of 0.6. Because of these two issues, J-10B equibed with WS-10A has no speed advantages over AL-31FN and less accleration than AL-31FN.

Now, if J-10B uses 117S it will have far greater speed, accleration, and agility. Remember 117S has 142Kn, a BP ratio of 0.62 and 3D TVC. J-10B using 117S will be better than Rafale even Typhoon. J-20A will also use 117S, because WS-10G, according to the latest report will not be ready until 2018 which is the same as the mighty WS-15 !!

Now you go figure !!

Conclusion: China spends 1.5 billion USD gets 24 useless Su-35 then trashed them right away, China will not even buy weapons for the Su-35s. Then it opens doors for the 117S. J-10B use 117S and the early batch of J-20 (J-20A) uses 117S too until WS-15 come online in 2019 !

Period !

How can 24 (or more likely 48) SU-35S be useless? I can think of several Chinese fighter regiments – close to 40, in fact – that would be exceedingly happy to lay their hands on 24 SU-25S!

No one would dispute that SU-35S is a fine fighter, superior to anything in PLAAF’s inventory. About compatibility and avionics, what would the problem with fitting Chinese avionics, if that is what they prefer? As far as I know, Russia has had no compunction about putting French and Israeli avionics into export SU-30’s, especially SU-30MKI for India.

Have we ever seen China buying anything they did not think they needed? With J-11B being produced at snail’s pace, PLAAF’s equipment plans must have been thoroughly upset.